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Author Topic:   Let's face it...
joz
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 108 (655)
12-12-2001 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by redstang281
12-12-2001 12:04 PM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
The analogy meant with his own two feet. Geez!! Give me a break here.

I will say again, and I will say it over and over again if I have to, I believe in free will AND original sin. Because God set the standard of rules only on his attainability, it is impossible for a mortal man to comply with each rule. And the sin of Adam weighs upon all of our shoulders.


And I assert that in any system where the plenun of choices is restricted there is no free will.....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:04 PM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:25 PM joz has responded

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 108 (657)
12-12-2001 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by joz
12-12-2001 12:21 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
And I assert that in any system where the plenun of choices is restricted there is no free will.....

Having a limit to what you can do does not mean you have no free will.

Because you can not grow to be 20 feet tall doesn't mean you don't have free will.

You have free will to attempt the impossible, but that doesn't mean you can obtain the impossible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 12:21 PM joz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 12:37 PM redstang281 has responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3387 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 33 of 108 (658)
12-12-2001 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by redstang281
12-12-2001 12:10 PM


"Adam eating the apple was an example to God. It showed him the nature of man. We all came from Adam and are made of the same makeup as he. Maybe you wouldn't eat the apple, but you would do something else that is forbid."

1/ God KNOWS the nature of man, he created him. Some people would have eaten it, some wouldn't. Some people WOULD have followed ALL the rules. Incidentally, what are these rules that no-one can follow. You seem very sure I would be fallible.

2/ For the third time.......

"I put it to you again, if Gods fairness in blaming ALL of us for Adams naughtyness is righteous. Then would you consent to a term of incarceration for someone elses crime? Say 15 years, followed by the chair? Knowing full well that the judge & jury knew you never committed the crime at all."

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:10 PM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:59 PM mark24 has responded

    
joz
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 108 (661)
12-12-2001 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by redstang281
12-12-2001 12:25 PM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
Having a limit to what you can do does not mean you have no free will.

Because you can not grow to be 20 feet tall doesn't mean you don't have free will.

You have free will to attempt the impossible, but that doesn't mean you can obtain the impossible.


But by your own logic if original sin holds true man cannot ever make an honest attempt at living free from sin so their free will is constrained and therefore a misnomer....

I can make an honest effort to discover surgical, genetic manipulation techniques to achieve the end of growing to be 20 ft tall...

I may fail in both cases the difference is that there is a possible solution that involves the achievement of my aims in the second case, a solution that is missing assuming your original sin constraint of free will....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:25 PM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 1:11 PM joz has not yet responded

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 108 (662)
12-12-2001 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by mark24
12-12-2001 12:27 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"Adam eating the apple was an example to God. It showed him the nature of man. We all came from Adam and are made of the same makeup as he. Maybe you wouldn't eat the apple, but you would do something else that is forbid."

1/ God KNOWS the nature of man, he created him. Some people would have eaten it, some wouldn't. Some people WOULD have followed ALL the rules. Incidentally, what are these rules that no-one can follow. You seem very sure I would be fallible.


This is you putting human qualities into God. If you or I created something than yes we should know everything about it. But when God creates something he is certainly capible of making it's nature unknown to him if he chooses. Or, it's also feasible that God did know our nature when he created us, and our redemtion through Jesus Christ was his elaborate plan for us that he knew all along.

As far as you stand I reserve judgement because I myself am fallible as well (through no suprise to you I am sure .)

[b] [QUOTE]
2/ For the third time.......

"I put it to you again, if Gods fairness in blaming ALL of us for Adams naughtyness is righteous. Then would you consent to a term of incarceration for someone elses crime? Say 15 years, followed by the chair? Knowing full well that the judge & jury knew you never committed the crime at all."

Mark
[/b]
[/QUOTE]

If they were putting me on trial for a specific action that I didn't commit, then no it's not fair. But if they are putting me on trail for me being human and making mistakes than I would have to say I'm guilty.

Yes the apple that adam ate was a specific action, but that showed God that man can not be trusted. God can judge us all based on that one action of Adam. And it is an accurate judgement or else we wouldn't have the expression "we're only human, we make mistakes."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 12:27 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 1:31 PM redstang281 has responded
 Message 49 by Percy, posted 12-12-2001 8:00 PM redstang281 has not yet responded

  
lburbank111
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 108 (663)
12-12-2001 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by redstang281
12-12-2001 8:08 AM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation.

Jesus died for our sins so that we can enter heaven, not so that the world could become perfect again.

Yes, God is hard to please. God is impossible for man to please. EVERYONE falls short of God's commandments and each one of those is a sin. Jesus did for the sin you committed, are committing currently, and the sin you destined to commit. For nothing can enter heaven that is not pure, but God with God anything is possible so Jesus is the path God gives us to take.


Where does the bible say that it's an apple?

How could Adam (working within the myth) know if it was right or wrong before he ate from the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil"?

If people are still sinners, as you state, then how can they enter heaven, since you also state that nothing impure can enter heaven?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 8:08 AM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 1:17 PM lburbank111 has not yet responded

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 108 (664)
12-12-2001 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by joz
12-12-2001 12:37 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
But by your own logic if original sin holds true man cannot ever make an honest attempt at living free from sin so their free will is constrained and therefore a misnomer....

Oh man can always try to live without sin. We're supposed to try. But what we have to realize is we can't make it. So that's where Jesus comes in.

[b] [QUOTE]
I can make an honest effort to discover surgical, genetic manipulation techniques to achieve the end of growing to be 20 ft tall...
[/b][/QUOTE]

Right.... Even if it were possible, you'd be good at basketball but still wouldn't get around the other end of my analogy.

[b] [QUOTE]
I may fail in both cases the difference is that there is a possible solution that involves the achievement of my aims in the second case, a solution that is missing assuming your original sin constraint of free will....[/b][/QUOTE]

Free will gives us the ability to do whatever is humanly possibly. I will forever retain the elementary knowledge that everyone makes mistakes(or sins.) And everyone knows it's impossible not to ever make a mistake.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 12:37 PM joz has not yet responded

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 108 (665)
12-12-2001 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by lburbank111
12-12-2001 1:02 PM


quote:
Originally posted by lburbank111:
Where does the bible say that it's an apple?

Very good. Actually it says fruit, but the common idea is it was an apple, so I said apple.

[b] [QUOTE]
How could Adam (working within the myth) know if it was right or wrong before he ate from the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil"?
[/b][/QUOTE]

The bible says God told him not to eat from that tree.

[b] [QUOTE]
If people are still sinners, as you state, then how can they enter heaven, since you also state that nothing impure can enter heaven?[/b][/QUOTE]

Good question my friend. Jesus died for our sins and through praying to Jesus that you know you sin(make mistakes against God's word) and asking for forgiveness you may enter heaven through his suffering. For nothing may exist in heaven that includes sin and the only to be cleared of sin is through Jesus.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by lburbank111, posted 12-12-2001 1:02 PM lburbank111 has not yet responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3387 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 39 of 108 (670)
12-12-2001 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by redstang281
12-12-2001 12:59 PM


"If they were putting me on trial for a specific action that I didn't commit, then no it's not fair. But if they are putting me on trail for me being human and making mistakes than I would have to say I'm guilty."

In which case, the death penalty for "being human" would be unfair?

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 12:59 PM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 1:34 PM mark24 has responded

    
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 108 (671)
12-12-2001 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by mark24
12-12-2001 1:31 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"If they were putting me on trial for a specific action that I didn't commit, then no it's not fair. But if they are putting me on trail for me being human and making mistakes than I would have to say I'm guilty."

In which case, the death penalty for "being human" would be unfair?


No, if the death penalty was for being human then yes that would be a fair judge of me(or anyone.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 1:31 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 1:53 PM redstang281 has responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3387 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 41 of 108 (672)
12-12-2001 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by redstang281
12-12-2001 1:34 PM


"if the death penalty was for being human then yes that would be a fair judge of me(or anyone.) "

Let me clarify, do you think the death penalty is fair punishment for the terrible crime of being human?

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 1:34 PM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 2:10 PM mark24 has responded

    
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 108 (674)
12-12-2001 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by mark24
12-12-2001 1:53 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
"if the death penalty was for being human then yes that would be a fair judge of me(or anyone.) "

Let me clarify, do you think the death penalty is fair punishment for the terrible crime of being human?


The judgment is fair. The punishment isn't fair.

For disobeying God I believe the punishment we receive is fair. Yet God gives us redemption through Jesus Christ which shows his limitness love and forgiveness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 1:53 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 2:34 PM redstang281 has responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3387 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 43 of 108 (675)
12-12-2001 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by redstang281
12-12-2001 2:10 PM


It took a long time getting here......

"I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex."

"Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation."

So you link human nature with original sin. Being human is inherently sinful because Adam disobeyed God.

You then go on to say that the death penalty for being human isn't fair.

"The judgment is fair. The punishment isn't fair.

&

For disobeying God I believe the punishment we receive is fair."

So, finally, back to points made on the first page. Unborn children with congenital illnesses that can only be death sentences you say are for original sin (being human), & as a punishment imposed by God is fair dincum. But you contradict yourself in saying its not fair?

So you think Gods not fair, but actually you do........


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 2:10 PM redstang281 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 3:01 PM mark24 has not yet responded

    
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 108 (677)
12-12-2001 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by mark24
12-12-2001 2:34 PM


quote:
Originally posted by mark24:
It took a long time getting here......

"I believe this is why God created STD's - to punish those who abuse his gift of sex."

"Unborn children did fall. The biblical account of Adam eating the apple when God specifically told him not to is the example to illustrated that man by nature can not obey God's rules. Sense we all came from Adam we all carry his sin with us. Just as anyone of us would have eating that apple if we would have been in the same situation."

So you link human nature with original sin. Being human is inherently sinful because Adam disobeyed God.

You then go on to say that the death penalty for being human isn't fair.

"The judgment is fair. The punishment isn't fair.

&

For disobeying God I believe the punishment we receive is fair."

So, finally, back to points made on the first page. Unborn children with congenital illnesses that can only be death sentences you say are for original sin (being human), & as a punishment imposed by God is fair dincum. But you contradict yourself in saying its not fair?

So you think Gods not fair, but actually you do........


For a man to deny me life because I am just like him, that is not fair. For God to deny me life because I am not like him, that is fair. Because of course we are not like God.

But in order to judge someone of something you must yourself lack that which you judge them on.

So therefor if God gives us the death penalty for what we are, then yes that is fair. But how man A say man B is guilty of death simply for being a man, when man A is a man as well?

You see the judgement of man would be hypocritical, but the judgement of God would not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by mark24, posted 12-12-2001 2:34 PM mark24 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 3:18 PM redstang281 has not yet responded

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 108 (680)
12-12-2001 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by redstang281
12-12-2001 3:01 PM


I ask athiest and evolutionist to think in terms of creation for one momment please. If everyone from Adam until present day obeyed the law in the bible of waiting until marriage to have sex, don't you think std's would barely be anything of a problem?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by redstang281, posted 12-12-2001 3:01 PM redstang281 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by joz, posted 12-12-2001 3:41 PM redstang281 has responded
 Message 52 by mark24, posted 12-13-2001 6:38 AM redstang281 has responded
 Message 66 by mark24, posted 12-16-2001 12:45 PM redstang281 has responded

  
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