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Author Topic:   should IUD's be considered instruments of murder?
nator
Member (Idle past 2258 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 241 of 327 (442076)
12-19-2007 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by New Cat's Eye
12-19-2007 8:40 PM


Re: are you drunk?
quote:
That's the point of contention. Not that they aren't all forms but that all forms are unavailable when one is removed.
If abortion is made illegal, only the unsafe ones will be available, and in many cases, even those will not be available.
quote:
Illegalizing abortion as a medical procedure does not force women to give birth because they still have other methods of abortion.
Dude, it will be illegal.
Lots of people will not get abortions for that fact alone, since back alley abortions of all sorts are unsafe.
quote:
I suppose that making abortion illegal would include all forms across the board, unless it only outlawed specific methods. So, I see how it could be perceived as a forced birth. But other methods could easily avoid prosecution and remain available.
Oh yeah? Like what?
quote:
So that's where the problem is with illegalizing it as a medical procedure. It forces women to rely on another method, not to give birth.
What if no method is available, or she doesn't want to break the law?
If the law says you can't have an abortion, how is that not another way of enforcing birth by law?
I have Option A and Option B.
All permutations of Option A are illegal.
The law therefore dictates that my only option is Option B.
The law therefore dictates that I must give birth if I am pregnant, or risk criminal prosecution, since all forms of abortion are illegal.
quote:
Those other methods are worse, so keeping the medical procedure available seems to be beneficial in that aspect.
So glad you agree.
quote:
Besides, if I don't want to kill an unborn person, then I don't have to. If someone else wants to do that, I don't have a good enough reason to stop them.
Precisely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2007 8:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 10:16 AM nator has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2730 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 242 of 327 (442093)
12-20-2007 4:41 AM


Question for Buz & Juggs
Since both of you have declared an IUD to be an unacceptable form of birth control, I have a couple of questions for you two.
1. Do you consider The Pill unacceptable as well? After all, The Pill prevents implantation too (when its first 2 lines of defense--ovulation suppression and cervical mucus enhancement--fail).
2. Do you consider IVF murder? After all, most IVF fails. 3-4 blastocytes are used in each attempt. 3 IVF treatments are needed to achieve a pregnancy (on average). That's 11 "dead babies" according to you two. Are women who use IVF therefore murderers? Are IVF specialists murderers just like abortionists?

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 243 of 327 (442134)
12-20-2007 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by New Cat's Eye
12-19-2007 6:35 PM


Its not poor, there are other ways to terminate a pregnancy too.
do you think that if doctor's office abortions become illegal, that self-induced abortions stay legal? do you think that if a woman went to the hospital half dead from a self-induced abortion, they wouldn't jail her as soon as she was healthy enough... if she lived?
what the hell is wrong with you that you think binge drinking and throwing yourself down the stairs or gouging out your guts with a coathanger is acceptable and going to the doctor 4 weeks into a pregnancy to get a pill that sloughs the lining of your uterus isn't? what the hell is wrong with you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2007 6:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 10:17 AM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 249 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 10:20 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 244 of 327 (442135)
12-20-2007 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Silent H
12-19-2007 6:53 PM


as well it should be. they can post pictures of HOMG DEAD BABIES!!!! but real (formerly) live women aren't acceptable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Silent H, posted 12-19-2007 6:53 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2007 4:46 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 245 of 327 (442137)
12-20-2007 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by New Cat's Eye
12-19-2007 8:40 PM


Re: are you drunk?
Not that they aren't all forms but that all forms are unavailable when one is removed.
if abortion becomes illegal, sel-induced abortion becomes illegal, too.
But other methods could easily avoid prosecution and remain available.
avoid prosecution and increase the risk of the death of the woman.
So that's where the problem is with illegalizing it as a medical procedure. It forces women to rely on another method, not to give birth. Those other methods are worse, so keeping the medical procedure available seems to be beneficial in that aspect.
Besides, if I don't want to kill an unborn person, then I don't have to. If someone else wants to do that, I don't have a good enough reason to stop them.
and this is exactly why the church supported legalization until it happened. and then someone decided that the precious little babies (tm) were too important to protect women.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2007 8:40 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 327 (442138)
12-20-2007 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by nator
12-19-2007 10:19 PM


Re: are you drunk?
If abortion is made illegal, only the unsafe ones will be available...
Therefore, birth is not forced.
That's all I cared to say. But I doubt you'll stop bullshitting about forcing birth anyways.
The law therefore dictates that I must give birth if I am pregnant, or risk criminal prosecution, since all forms of abortion are illegal.
Risking criminal prosecution is Option C. You are not forced to take Option B.
Having the speed limit at 65 mph does not force me to drive slow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by nator, posted 12-19-2007 10:19 PM nator has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 327 (442139)
12-20-2007 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by macaroniandcheese
12-20-2007 10:07 AM


what I think is none of your business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 10:07 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 10:27 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 327 (442141)
12-20-2007 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by macaroniandcheese
12-19-2007 6:45 PM


no sex may be an option. but. those options are for me to determine and not you.
You want to have your cake and eat it too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-19-2007 6:45 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 10:25 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 327 (442143)
12-20-2007 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by macaroniandcheese
12-20-2007 10:07 AM


what the hell is wrong with you that you think binge drinking and throwing yourself down the stairs or gouging out your guts with a coathanger is acceptable and going to the doctor 4 weeks into a pregnancy to get a pill that sloughs the lining of your uterus isn't? what the hell is wrong with you?
Well, I can tell that horrible reading comprehension is what the hell is wrong with you.
Please quote me on the acceptability of those things.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 10:07 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 10:26 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 250 of 327 (442146)
12-20-2007 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2007 10:18 AM


You want to have your cake and eat it too.
no. i want what's guaranteed by the constitution: protection from unreasonable search and seizure, and by my constitution in florida, a right to privacy. what i do in my life is none of your damn business. why do you feel the need to quiz me about my sexual practices (or lack thereof)? what sick perversion do you suffer from that you need to spy on women to make sure they're acting "responsibly"? why don't you think women are fully human and capable of making their own decisions? the constitution says i'm an adult and a citizen and guaranteed full protection of the law. stay the hell out of my life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 10:18 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 251 of 327 (442147)
12-20-2007 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2007 10:20 AM


well, clearly somehow those measures are available and should be taken instead of a safe medical procedure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 10:20 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 252 of 327 (442148)
12-20-2007 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2007 10:17 AM


what you think has been broadcast here for all the world to see. and what they can clearly see is that you think that women are not full adults deserving and possessing rights and that they are not capable of rational decisionmaking and instead need you to determine what activities they should be participating in and what they must be doing with their bodies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 10:17 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 10:34 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 253 of 327 (442149)
12-20-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by macaroniandcheese
12-20-2007 10:27 AM


Wow, you're the stupidest bitch I've seen in a while. You're so fucking retarded that you can't even comprehend what I'm saying.
And then to tell me that I think something that I don't.
Fuck you and piss off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 10:27 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 10:38 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 10:51 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 284 by nator, posted 12-20-2007 5:32 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 293 by AdminModulous, posted 12-20-2007 6:22 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 254 of 327 (442151)
12-20-2007 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2007 10:34 AM


clearly, i must be stupid. i'm a woman.
so. since you don't believe that, why don't you prove i'm wrong. tell me what you do believe.
of course, i believe you'll be suspended for your unneccessary outburst.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 10:34 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 10:50 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 327 (442154)
12-20-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by macaroniandcheese
12-20-2007 10:38 AM


so. since you don't believe that, why don't you prove i'm wrong. tell me what you do believe.
Its already been posted in this thread.
Instead of me repeating myself, why don't you show me where I've said anything that resembles what you said that I said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 10:38 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

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