Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9175 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: sirs
Post Volume: Total: 917,646 Year: 4,903/9,624 Month: 251/427 Week: 61/103 Day: 5/14 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   should IUD's be considered instruments of murder?
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4013 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 286 of 327 (442297)
12-20-2007 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by LinearAq
12-20-2007 5:43 PM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
i couldn't remember which letter it was.
Yep!
i'm glad you feel you're qualified to judge the level of other people's responsibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by LinearAq, posted 12-20-2007 5:43 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by LinearAq, posted 12-20-2007 5:57 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 287 of 327 (442300)
12-20-2007 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2007 4:49 PM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
molbiogirl writes:
No method of birth control is 100% (not even tubal ligation).
Responsible, birth-control-using women get pregnant.
CS responds:
I don't think that they don't. But its not over half of them.
While you are correct, you seem to be misunderstanding the statistic. Brenn said that over half of the women getting abortions (53%) reported that they were on some kind of contraceptive method (which included the rhythm method). That doesn't mean that 50% of women on contraception became pregnant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 4:49 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5905 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 288 of 327 (442303)
12-20-2007 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2007 4:49 PM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
CS, if you are going to question the Guttmacher stats, you need to be consistent. You can't cite one self-reported Guttmacher stat and use it as proof and then in the next breath critique another self-reported Guttmacher stat. You can't have it both ways.
Hahahaha... just to let you know she likes to have it both ways when she's the one arguing. She's dismissed portions or the entirety of her own cites three times with me. When I called her on it she just hand-waved or disappeared.
That said, you should be consistent... and not so angry.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 4:49 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 289 of 327 (442305)
12-20-2007 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by LinearAq
12-20-2007 5:43 PM


Linear, the same question goes for you.
Why is a zygote a "child"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by LinearAq, posted 12-20-2007 5:43 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by LinearAq, posted 12-21-2007 12:15 PM molbiogirl has replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 290 of 327 (442310)
12-20-2007 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by macaroniandcheese
12-20-2007 5:47 PM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
i'm glad you feel you're qualified to judge the level of other people's responsibility.
You said she wasn't using birth control at the time and had sex. What would you call it? Responsible?
I'm sorry that she had difficulties with oral or patch or whatever contraceptive she was using. I'm sorry she had to endure the abortion even if it was only a little pain for her. However, contraceptive methods require certain dosages or methods of use to be effective. Even then they are not 100% (You said that). So having sex when not using them properly, especially if you understand the proper way to use them, is irresponsible. So...yep, she and her partner were being irresponsible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 5:47 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 6:07 PM LinearAq has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4013 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 291 of 327 (442315)
12-20-2007 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by LinearAq
12-20-2007 5:57 PM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
i never said she had an abortion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by LinearAq, posted 12-20-2007 5:57 PM LinearAq has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4013 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 292 of 327 (442317)
12-20-2007 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2007 4:20 PM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
why do you want children to be a "consequence" of "irresponsibility"? do you think that results in loving parents and healthy homes for these children?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 4:20 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by LinearAq, posted 12-21-2007 11:48 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 293 of 327 (442325)
12-20-2007 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2007 10:34 AM


Take a week off
If, for some reason, you require more details details see Message 284. My thanks to nator and anglagard for bringing this to my attention

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], [thread=-19,-337], [thread=-14,-1073]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2007 10:34 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 9:56 PM AdminModulous has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4013 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 294 of 327 (442376)
12-20-2007 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by AdminModulous
12-20-2007 6:22 PM


Re: Take a week off
dammit. i wanted an answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by AdminModulous, posted 12-20-2007 6:22 PM AdminModulous has not replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 295 of 327 (442463)
12-21-2007 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by macaroniandcheese
12-20-2007 6:08 PM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
brennakimi writes:
why do you want children to be a "consequence" of "irresponsibility"? do you think that results in loving parents and healthy homes for these children?
Because he thinks abortion is killing the child. Therefore, he may wonder why you want the child to pay with its life for the irresponsibility of the mother and father.
You may now say that you don't think it is a child. So?
If I don't think cats are anything but a shotgun target, how does that affect your point of view concerning cats? Even if the law placed zero value on pets such that there were no consequences for using them as shotgun targets, would your concern for cats be less? Would you be upset if people were shotgunning cats at a rifle range near your house?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-20-2007 6:08 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-21-2007 12:23 PM LinearAq has replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 296 of 327 (442469)
12-21-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by molbiogirl
12-20-2007 5:54 PM


Re: Linear, the same question goes for you.
As I said to nator when asked how a 2 yo child and a blastocyst were the same:
If allowed to continue living, they both could grow up to be a scientist, pastor, president of a company, inventor of the solution to global warming.
A zygote is a human in an earlier stage of development than a 2 yo child.
Hey, they each could grow up to be a Hitler, Stalin or Ted Bundy also. However that is really no argument for destroying the blastocyst any more than it is an argument for destroying the child.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by molbiogirl, posted 12-20-2007 5:54 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by molbiogirl, posted 12-21-2007 4:40 PM LinearAq has replied
 Message 305 by nator, posted 12-21-2007 5:05 PM LinearAq has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4013 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 297 of 327 (442471)
12-21-2007 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by LinearAq
12-21-2007 11:48 AM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
abortion killing the child has nothing to do with whether forced childbearing creates happy, healthy, loving families with responsible parents.
You may now say that you don't think it is a child. So?
in my mind, it doesn't really matter if it's a child or not. forcing ill-prepared people to have children results in abused and neglected children. adoption often results in abandonment issues on a massive scale, and that's assuming said adoption takes place swiftly and not after years of living within the child "welfare" system.
howard dean instituted parental education classes when he was governor. these courses cut child abuse by half. he cut child sexual abuse by 70-75% (i forget). now. while i support parenting education courses, i doubt it's very popular. do you think these people were ready to have children?
my friend i told you about. she and her husband are struggling to make ends meet. they were struggling before they had the baby and they're worse off now. he has no motivation and an idea that he has to be the provider. she has motivation and an idea that she has to submit. they were having relationship problems before. they're worse now. i didn't think they were ready to marry, much less have children. if it were me in that situation (and it is, more or less, minus the pregnancy issue) i would be irresponsible in bringing a child into that situation. it's not healthy. for me, the responsible choice is abortion, especially compounded by living in florida, where it is horribly irresponsible to entrust a child to dcf. in my eyes, it is gross abuse and neglect to turn a child over to them. death doesn't create psychological harm which could result in the child becoming a social danger.
if we're going to talk about responsibility, we have to talk about the whole picture.
why aren't anti-choicers in the streets rioting about the abomination that is this country's child welfare system?
why aren't they demanding and instituting parenting classes?
why aren't they up in arms about responsible birth control use?
why aren't they demanding assistance to help unplanned parents to pay for both carrying the pregnancy and providing for the child through age 18?
why do they fight welfare?
why don't they care about fixing the adoption system?
why aren't their families swelling with adopted children?
why are anti-abortionists taking their daughters in for abortions?
why do only 1.7 million households have an adopted child?
why do only 18% of those households have more than one adopted child?
why are 13% of the adoptions in this country foreign-born children?
The Population of California: Current & Historical
if these people who are suffering from unplanned pregnancies have so clearly demonstrated irresponsibility and incompetence in your eyes, why do you want them raising children?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by LinearAq, posted 12-21-2007 11:48 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by LinearAq, posted 12-21-2007 2:27 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 300 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-21-2007 3:04 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 298 of 327 (442514)
12-21-2007 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by macaroniandcheese
12-21-2007 12:23 PM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
I really liked your reply, too bad this thread is almost done.
brennakimi writes:
abortion killing the child has nothing to do with whether forced childbearing creates happy, healthy, loving families with responsible parents....
...in my mind, it doesn't really matter if it's a child or not. forcing ill-prepared people to have children results in abused and neglected children. adoption often results in abandonment issues on a massive scale, and that's assuming said adoption takes place swiftly and not after years of living within the child "welfare" system.
I agree that the human rights status of the fetus has no bearing on the happiness of the family if it is forced upon them. However...
Where do you get your statistics on adoption? Are they overall statistics for ages 0-16 perhaps? Do those stats hold up for newborn through 1 year? I doubt it but have not seen any real statistics on it. The only information I have thus far comes from adoption web sites and my own experience. It is difficult to get an infant if you are trying to adopt. They are usually spoken for long before the mother gives birth.
The struggles of your friend could have been mitigated by her placing the child up for adoption (I guess the husband would have had to consent) before it was born. That would have been at least as responsible as an abortion while not bruising the sensitivities of any one objecting to abortion. Now she seems doubly irresponsible for not taking proper contraceptive precautions and then not preventing the child from being placed in a bad situation.
Your argument about it being irresponsible to bring the fetus to term depends on the parent making a bad choice for the child after it is born. Just doesn't really wash from my perspective.
if we're going to talk about responsibility, we have to talk about the whole picture.
Absolutely
why aren't anti-choicers in the streets rioting about the abomination that is this country's child welfare system?
why aren't they demanding and instituting parenting classes?
why aren't they up in arms about responsible birth control use?
why aren't they demanding assistance to help unplanned parents to pay for both carrying the pregnancy and providing for the child through age 18?
why do they fight welfare?
why don't they care about fixing the adoption system?
why aren't their families swelling with adopted children?
why are anti-abortionists taking their daughters in for abortions?
why do only 1.7 million households have an adopted child?
why do only 18% of those households have more than one adopted child?
why are 13% of the adoptions in this country foreign-born children?
Why indeed?
What's broke about the adoption system? What is wrong with the child welfare system?
Your adoption statistics don't really get to the heart of the issue concerning abortion. They don't tell us how many children going into the foster care system are older. What percentage of older children going into the system are subsequently adopted vs numbers of infants going into the system that are subsequently adopted? Most infants don't really go into foster care because they are adopted before birth.
How many children are in the system vs numbers that are adopted each year? The child welfare site states that in the US over the past 5 years the number of foster children was around 130,000. In that time the average adoption rate from that system was 220,000. Average wait time was around 1.4 years per child. Again, I couldn't find statistics based on age but I would go out on a limb to say younger children get adopted more quickly.
Your questions on the inconsistencies of anti-abortionists have answers as varied as the people involved.
An anti-abortionist having her daughter get an abortion is an individual choice and not necessarily reflective of the general response by the majority of the movement should they be confronted with the same situation. My daughter had her child and I helped her till she was financially able to care for him.
Why should we pay for raising a child through age 18 if it was unplanned? Those parents have the option of giving up the child.
Parenting classes being mandatory would violate the right of adults to be ill informed and stupid.
Many anti-abortionists believe that sex outside of marriage is a sin. So, making contraceptive devices difficult to get and difficult to learn to use properly will influence people to avoid sex outside of marriage. In this case, those anti-abortionists are exerting their right to be ill informed and stupid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-21-2007 12:23 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-21-2007 2:51 PM LinearAq has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4013 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 299 of 327 (442525)
12-21-2007 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by LinearAq
12-21-2007 2:27 PM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
Where do you get your statistics on adoption? Are they overall statistics for ages 0-16 perhaps? Do those stats hold up for newborn through 1 year?
the statistics i have were from the link i left. the knowledge that abandoning a child, even when it may be in the best interests of the child, comes from a knowledge of how human brains work. sometimes, these problems can be mitigated through superb parenting. but it will almost always be there. when a child knows someone didn't want it, it causes problems. period. when an adult knows someone didn't want it, it often causes problems.
The struggles of your friend could have been mitigated by her placing the child up for adoption
you do recall we live in florida.
Now she seems doubly irresponsible for not taking proper contraceptive precautions
at least she's paying the consequences, right?
Your argument about it being irresponsible to bring the fetus to term depends on the parent making a bad choice for the child after it is born.
very often, there are only bad choices to be made. the idea that there are good choices always is a fairy tale.
What's broke about the adoption system? What is wrong with the child welfare system?
you're kidding, right? well. for one, dcf hires child molesters. i know a guy whose last roommate was working as a desk clerk in a child welfare office. he was pursuing a career as a case manager. he loaned my acquaintance a "blank" cd to use for an assignment. they found kiddie pics on it. said roommate is now in jail. this is not an isolated incident. dcf has been responsible for many cases of severe mismanagement. watch the news sometimes.
Your adoption statistics don't really get to the heart of the issue concerning abortion. They don't tell us how many children going into the foster care system are older.
no, they don't. they weren't intended to. how many older children in the welfare system do you think come from unplanned pregnancies? it's purely speculation, but i'm sure the number would be less if people were prepared to be parents.
Most infants don't really go into foster care because they are adopted before birth.
show me.
How many children are in the system vs numbers that are adopted each year? The child welfare site states that in the US over the past 5 years the number of foster children was around 130,000. In that time the average adoption rate from that system was 220,000.
those numbers don't really make sense.
An anti-abortionist having her daughter get an abortion is an individual choice and not necessarily reflective of the general response by the majority of the movement should they be confronted with the same situation.
of course. but why was that anti-abortionist okay with making the choice in her situation, but still prefers to try to disallow it for everyone else. why do they think they're better at making that choice?
Why should we pay for raising a child through age 18 if it was unplanned? Those parents have the option of giving up the child.
in the end, someone has to pay for the kid. many anti-abortionists also favor the "sanctity" of the family. they seek to preserve "whole" families. shouldn't they support those families if they can't support themselves.
as it is, why not let the couple pay for an abortion. then no one has to pay for the kid.
also, this assumes that giving up the child is beneficial.
Parenting classes being mandatory would violate the right of adults to be ill informed and stupid.
Many anti-abortionists believe that sex outside of marriage is a sin. So, making contraceptive devices difficult to get and difficult to learn to use properly will influence people to avoid sex outside of marriage. In this case, those anti-abortionists are exerting their right to be ill informed and stupid.
you'll have to tell me where in the constitution it says that you have a right to be ill-informed and stupid.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by LinearAq, posted 12-21-2007 2:27 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by LinearAq, posted 12-21-2007 4:11 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 327 (442529)
12-21-2007 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by macaroniandcheese
12-21-2007 12:23 PM


Re: Rape and Forced Birth
in my mind, it doesn't really matter if it's a child or not. forcing ill-prepared people to have children results in abused and neglected children.
One word -- adoption. If two parents can't handle the rigors of parenting, then adopt the child. Birth parents don't have to worry about neglect or give up their dreams, adopting parents get to have the bundle of joy they always wanted, and the child gets to, you know, live! Seems like a pretty sweet deal for all involved parties.
adoption often results in abandonment issues on a massive scale, and that's assuming said adoption takes place swiftly and not after years of living within the child "welfare" system.
So, comrade Brenna, we should just kill them in the event that they could be neglected? Makes sense, I guess. We should just kill everyone off come to think of it. Humans are just going to pollute the earth more and more. We might as well start cutting back on the numbers like China does -- abortions and executions for the chosen.
Alright, which one of you wants to lead us by example? The gallows are that'away!
howard dean instituted parental education classes when he was governor.
Yeah, but he's also crazy, so..... who cares what he thinks? Ah, I'm just messin' with you. That whole thing was blown WAY out of proportion.
she and her husband are struggling to make ends meet. they were struggling before they had the baby and they're worse off now. he has no motivation and an idea that he has to be the provider. she has motivation and an idea that she has to submit. they were having relationship problems before. they're worse now.
Sounds like he needs to stop being a douche-bag, not that they should have just executed little baby, Jessica. Movies are great for escapism, but they hardly reflect real life in most cases. Any relationship requires effort.
I read an analogy in a book once on marriage that stuck with me. Marriage is like the Mississippi river. This river runs from North to South, from Minnesota all the way down to the Mississippi river basin, where it filters out in to the Gulf of Mexico. If you do no paddling whatsoever (i.e. effort), you will go south without having tried to.
And it probably was a mistake for them to have gotten married and have kids. But the reality is that they did. So, now what?
The real moral of the story is that life is serious, and has serious consequences. How we parent and how we deal with people everyday is going to shape, and in many cases, dictate how functional a society is going to be. Killing things that get in the way of one's fun is only going to degrade that society even more by removing the sanctity of life.
if it were me in that situation (and it is, more or less, minus the pregnancy issue) i would be irresponsible in bringing a child into that situation. it's not healthy. for me, the responsible choice is abortion, especially compounded by living in florida, where it is horribly irresponsible to entrust a child to dcf. in my eyes, it is gross abuse and neglect to turn a child over to them. death doesn't create psychological harm which could result in the child becoming a social danger.
Well, the simple answer really is simple enough.
Answer: Don't get pregnant.
Of course, that assumes that we are dealing with responsible people. Some people aren't. Some people choose to float through life, drifting aimlessly, and then despair about how their situation isn't better. It happens. And whether you object to the religious connotations or not, there really is a clear sense of "sin" and what it does to people, and how it erodes any given society. But we needn't have to think about sin in religious contexts to understand that we really do reap what we sow.
why aren't anti-choicers in the streets rioting about the abomination that is this country's child welfare system?
Because its a strawman. One hasn't a thing to do with the other. Instead of telling people that its okay to kill their children when they get in the way, or just drop them off on the doorstep of the State, perhaps we should be teaching people about morals.
why aren't they demanding and instituting parenting classes?
They do. Any Family Resource Center, or a derivative, offers counseling. But you can't force people to take parenting classes. Maybe it should be compulsory, but as of now, it is not.
why aren't they up in arms about responsible birth control use?
Who says they aren't? How you NOT get pregnant is all fine and good. Not getting pregnant if you don't want to be is vastly better than going through an abortion or a pregnancy, just as not sinning in the first place is better than having to be forgiven.
why aren't they demanding assistance to help unplanned parents to pay for both carrying the pregnancy and providing for the child through age 18?
Assistance from whom?
why do they fight welfare?
Welfare has its merits, in its proper perspective. The unfortunate reality is that in many cases, the people who are on welfare abuse the hell out of it, which is a real shame for those who would use it properly.
why don't they care about fixing the adoption system?
What is broken about the adoption system?
why aren't their families swelling with adopted children?
I know of quite a few families who do adopt children from all over the world. In fact, my daughters friend across the street is a little Cambodian girl. They also have another adopted son.
Not everyone can afford a half dozen adopted children, though. Not all of us are as loaded as Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt. God bless the Pitt's and the Jolie's of this world who, by their fortune, can give someone far less fortunate a chance.
why are anti-abortionists taking their daughters in for abortions?
Because those one's are hypocrites.
why do only 1.7 million households have an adopted child?
Because most people conceive naturally.
why do only 18% of those households have more than one adopted child?
This is a string of strawmen... You want to kill these children! That pretty much ends the debate for you. So pretty please, with sugar on top, don't get all sanctimonious on us as if you have the moral superiority to do so.
why are 13% of the adoptions in this country foreign-born children?
I dare say those numbers are increasing because it is far easier to adopt a child outside of the US than it is to adopt within.
if these people who are suffering from unplanned pregnancies have so clearly demonstrated irresponsibility and incompetence in your eyes, why do you want them raising children?
Brenna, you are making one blanket statement after another. Your solution seems to be that we should just not have any children because some people are bad. Surely you see the absurdity in the argument.
Any which way you turn, there is a viable solution.
1. What should you do if you don't want to get pregnant?
    2. In the event that you try not to get pregnant, but do in anyhow, what should you do?
      3. What should you do about bad parents?
        The list goes on and on. But just remember, your advice is that we just kill them. I suppose we could bring it back to the Wild West where you just kill people that get in your way. But for some odd reason, it isn't conducive to a healthy society.

        “First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

        This message is a reply to:
         Message 297 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-21-2007 12:23 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

        Replies to this message:
         Message 301 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-21-2007 3:36 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
         Message 306 by nator, posted 12-21-2007 5:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

        Newer Topic | Older Topic
        Jump to:


        Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

        ™ Version 4.2
        Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024