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Author Topic:   2/3rds of Americans want creationism taught.
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 180 (239405)
09-01-2005 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Yaro
08-31-2005 7:35 AM


the truth hurts
Hi Yaro,
Sorry guys, the truth hurts, we came from a common ancestor, deal with it.
We did? That's the truth? Since this is the coffee house, am I allowed to require you to provide evidence for such a claim?
--Jason
This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-01-2005 07:18 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 08-31-2005 7:35 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Yaro, posted 09-01-2005 7:17 AM TheLiteralist has replied

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 180 (239413)
09-01-2005 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Yaro
09-01-2005 7:17 AM


Re: the truth hurts
I define truth as what I can deduce/induce from data, present in my environment, and gathered thrugh one of my five senses. Note, this does not require direct observation since two primary processes of logic (deduction and induction) are present in the deffinition.
Oh. I have a different definition, I guess, at least when I am discussing science. Truth equals "undeniable fact." Now, I don't mean that all that isn't undeniable fact isn't science, but then I don't equate science and truth, and I don't think that is an incorrect view of science.
The same genetic tests that can link a killer to a crime, or prove that someone is your long lost daughter, can also link us to those animals in the animal kingdom we are more closely related too. As it so happens, we are more closely related to the great apes.
I understood DNA tests to have determined that we share many similarities and differences with the great apes...not that we and they evolved from a common ancestor.
Now, this is all well and good all by it'self, untill you take into account the fact that DNA evidence only began to be widely used about 15-20 years ago. Long before 15-20 years ago, comperative anatomy, fossil evidence, radiometric dating, etc. led us to the SAME conclusion! The implacations are outstanding! DNA corroborates traditional biological sciences used to determine liniage, thereby bolstering it all the more
I know that comparative anatomy proves that many organisms share similarities and differences in anatomy. But does it demonstrate that everything evolved from a common ancestor?
Fossils, like living creatures, do prove that organisms can share many similarities and differences. Fossils also prove that many creatures have died, been preserved, and gone extinct, but do they prove that everthing evolved from a common ancestor?
Radiometric dating proves that various objects have various isotopic ratios...I'm not sure if this has anything to do with whether we all evolved from a common ancestor or not. Even though I'm a YEC, for argument's sake, I'll grant the 3 billion year time frame and that the layers-equal-epochs idea...even granting that; I fail to see how science has proved that all organisms evolved from a common ancestor.
If you consider evolution to be a deduction, we could agree, because that is what I think it is. But since you consider deductions to be truth, I must disagree with you.
--Jason
AbE: if "deduction" should be "induction"...forgive me...I have always mixed up the two terms...and understood them clearly ever only momentarily when examining a dictionary.
This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-01-2005 07:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Yaro, posted 09-01-2005 7:17 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by CK, posted 09-01-2005 7:43 AM TheLiteralist has replied
 Message 78 by Yaro, posted 09-01-2005 8:06 AM TheLiteralist has replied
 Message 93 by Nuggin, posted 09-01-2005 12:14 PM TheLiteralist has not replied

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 180 (239418)
09-01-2005 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by CK
09-01-2005 7:43 AM


truth = observation?
Wait.. before we go too far down this road, you know that in science that Fact=Observation rather than "This is true".
Okay. I think I'm missing something of your point. You are disagreeing with me, but I am not sure how.
--Jason
This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 09-01-2005 07:50 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by CK, posted 09-01-2005 7:43 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by CK, posted 09-01-2005 7:56 AM TheLiteralist has replied

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 180 (239421)
09-01-2005 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by CK
09-01-2005 7:43 AM


Re: the truth hurts
Wait, I think I get it...
Like in a geometrical proof. We might use axioms (or facts, in science proofs) to reach a true conclusion.
Is that what you're saying?
--Jason

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by CK, posted 09-01-2005 7:43 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by CK, posted 09-01-2005 8:03 AM TheLiteralist has replied

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 180 (239426)
09-01-2005 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by CK
09-01-2005 7:56 AM


Re: truth = observation?
Well, now, I'm a bit confused, but...
I think what I mean is that if "evolution of all living things from a common ancestor" is the conclusion, then all the evidence Yaro listed seems like circumstantial evidence to me. IOW, "truth" seems a bit overconfident, to me.
Is that better?
--Jason

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by CK, posted 09-01-2005 7:56 AM CK has not replied

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 180 (239436)
09-01-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by CK
09-01-2005 8:03 AM


Re: the truth hurts
Wow. I hate disagreeing with Wikipedia, but I do, in this case.
a fact is data supported by a scientific experiment.
As I understood it, data are generated by experiments...so I'm not even really understanding that sentence.
A fact is an honest observation
Agreed.
A scientific fact is an honest observation seen by many scientists.
Hah. Sounds a little egotistical...but okay.
A scientific fact is a scientific observation that is so accepted that it becomes difficult to consider other interpretations of the data.
So, fact = widely agreed upon interpretation of data? I am unsure about this.
AS far as scientific proofs go...well, maybe there is no such thing. I was remembering geometry class. But now that I think about it, the scientific method, though similar, never really concludes anything as 100% true, while geometrical proofs do, I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by CK, posted 09-01-2005 8:03 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2005 12:29 PM TheLiteralist has not replied

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 180 (239438)
09-01-2005 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Yaro
09-01-2005 8:06 AM


Re: the truth hurts
In regards to ERVs, I've never heard of it before. So, maybe one day I'll look into it. I can say nothing against it now, of course.
Can you offer another, valid, naturalistic, explanation?
Are you saying that only naturalistic explanations can be true and valid? I realize that only naturalistic explanations can be scientific...but true? valid?
--Jason

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Yaro, posted 09-01-2005 8:06 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Yaro, posted 09-01-2005 8:40 AM TheLiteralist has not replied
 Message 97 by jar, posted 09-01-2005 1:10 PM TheLiteralist has not replied

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