Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,838 Year: 4,095/9,624 Month: 966/974 Week: 293/286 Day: 14/40 Hour: 0/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   2/3rds of Americans want creationism taught.
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 121 of 180 (239618)
09-01-2005 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by randman
09-01-2005 2:20 PM


Re: not really
The topic is public opinion. Maybe we should get back to that.
I believe the public has been moved more to want to include alternatives to ToE not because they are mere dupes, but that there are real problems with ToE, especially in the way it is presented.
But the point of the thread is not really to debate the merits of ToE, but to discuss the fact that despite the massive funding for ToE proponents, this issue is not going away.
Public opinion be damned. This is about science, not democracy.
The survey you based this thread on simply shows that 2/3ds of the population is either ignorant or stupid, not that we should actually teach Creationism in schools. And honestly, finding out that the majoirty of people are idiots is no surprise. Another recent poll showed that 1 in 5 American adults think the sun revolves around the Earth!
It could be said that calling everyone who believes Creationism should be taught in schools stupid is a bit too far, but it's true. Anyone who supports teaching religious doctrines in public, secular schools as if they were somehow based on evidence instead of an old book is a fool.
Honestly. Lack of education/intelligence or religious dogma should never determine what is taught in schools. Education must be based on facts and theories backed by evidence, not on religious flim-flam. Unless of course you want to revert to the freaking Dark Ages.
The parents who want their kids to be indoctrinated with religion and taught Creationism should simply let it be taught in Sunday school, in church, where religious doctrine belongs. The public school system is for teaching about reality, not dogma.
I'm a religious guy, and I support people's right to believe however they wish, but the public school system is not a place for belief, it's a place for fact, evidence, and reality.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by randman, posted 09-01-2005 2:20 PM randman has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 151 of 180 (239707)
09-01-2005 4:58 PM


I think a recent article in the Guardian sums things up nicely.
quote:
One side can be wrong
Accepting 'intelligent design' in science classrooms would have disastrous consequences, warn Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne
Thursday September 1, 2005
The Guardian
It sounds so reasonable, doesn't it? Such a modest proposal. Why not teach "both sides" and let the children decide for themselves? As President Bush said, "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes." At first hearing, everything about the phrase "both sides" warms the hearts of educators like ourselves.
One of us spent years as an Oxford tutor and it was his habit to choose controversial topics for the students' weekly essays. They were required to go to the library, read about both sides of an argument, give a fair account of both, and then come to a balanced judgment in their essay. The call for balance, by the way, was always tempered by the maxim, "When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly half way between. It is possible for one side simply to be wrong."
As teachers, both of us have found that asking our students to analyse controversies is of enormous value to their education. What is wrong, then, with teaching both sides of the alleged controversy between evolution and creationism or "intelligent design" (ID)? And, by the way, don't be fooled by the disingenuous euphemism. There is nothing new about ID. It is simply creationism camouflaged with a new name to slip (with some success, thanks to loads of tax-free money and slick public-relations professionals) under the radar of the US Constitution's mandate for separation between church and state.
Why, then, would two lifelong educators and passionate advocates of the "both sides" style of teaching join with essentially all biologists in making an exception of the alleged controversy between creation and evolution? What is wrong with the apparently sweet reasonableness of "it is only fair to teach both sides"? The answer is simple. This is not a scientific controversy at all. And it is a time-wasting distraction because evolutionary science, perhaps more than any other major science, is bountifully endowed with genuine controversy.
Among the controversies that students of evolution commonly face, these are genuinely challenging and of great educational value: neutralism versus selectionism in molecular evolution; adaptationism; group selection; punctuated equilibrium; cladism; "evo-devo"; the "Cambrian Explosion"; mass extinctions; interspecies competition; sympatric speciation; sexual selection; the evolution of sex itself; evolutionary psychology; Darwinian medicine and so on. The point is that all these controversies, and many more, provide fodder for fascinating and lively argument, not just in essays but for student discussions late at night.
Intelligent design is not an argument of the same character as these controversies. It is not a scientific argument at all, but a religious one. It might be worth discussing in a class on the history of ideas, in a philosophy class on popular logical fallacies, or in a comparative religion class on origin myths from around the world. But it no more belongs in a biology class than alchemy belongs in a chemistry class, phlogiston in a physics class or the stork theory in a sex education class. In those cases, the demand for equal time for "both theories" would be ludicrous. Similarly, in a class on 20th-century European history, who would demand equal time for the theory that the Holocaust never happened?
So, why are we so sure that intelligent design is not a real scientific theory, worthy of "both sides" treatment? Isn't that just our personal opinion? It is an opinion shared by the vast majority of professional biologists, but of course science does not proceed by majority vote among scientists. Why isn't creationism (or its incarnation as intelligent design) just another scientific controversy, as worthy of scientific debate as the dozen essay topics we listed above? Here's why.
If ID really were a scientific theory, positive evidence for it, gathered through research, would fill peer-reviewed scientific journals. This doesn't happen. It isn't that editors refuse to publish ID research. There simply isn't any ID research to publish. Its advocates bypass normal scientific due process by appealing directly to the non-scientific public and - with great shrewdness - to the government officials they elect.
The argument the ID advocates put, such as it is, is always of the same character. Never do they offer positive evidence in favour of intelligent design. All we ever get is a list of alleged deficiencies in evolution. We are told of "gaps" in the fossil record. Or organs are stated, by fiat and without supporting evidence, to be "irreducibly complex": too complex to have evolved by natural selection.
In all cases there is a hidden (actually they scarcely even bother to hide it) "default" assumption that if Theory A has some difficulty in explaining Phenomenon X, we must automatically prefer Theory B without even asking whether Theory B (creationism in this case) is any better at explaining it. Note how unbalanced this is, and how it gives the lie to the apparent reasonableness of "let's teach both sides". One side is required to produce evidence, every step of the way. The other side is never required to produce one iota of evidence, but is deemed to have won automatically, the moment the first side encounters a difficulty - the sort of difficulty that all sciences encounter every day, and go to work to solve, with relish.
What, after all, is a gap in the fossil record? It is simply the absence of a fossil which would otherwise have documented a particular evolutionary transition. The gap means that we lack a complete cinematic record of every step in the evolutionary process. But how incredibly presumptuous to demand a complete record, given that only a minuscule proportion of deaths result in a fossil anyway.
The equivalent evidential demand of creationism would be a complete cinematic record of God's behaviour on the day that he went to work on, say, the mammalian ear bones or the bacterial flagellum - the small, hair-like organ that propels mobile bacteria. Not even the most ardent advocate of intelligent design claims that any such divine videotape will ever become available.
Biologists, on the other hand, can confidently claim the equivalent "cinematic" sequence of fossils for a very large number of evolutionary transitions. Not all, but very many, including our own descent from the bipedal ape Australopithecus. And - far more telling - not a single authentic fossil has ever been found in the "wrong" place in the evolutionary sequence. Such an anachronistic fossil, if one were ever unearthed, would blow evolution out of the water.
As the great biologist J B S Haldane growled, when asked what might disprove evolution: "Fossil rabbits in the pre-Cambrian." Evolution, like all good theories, makes itself vulnerable to disproof. Needless to say, it has always come through with flying colours.
Similarly, the claim that something - say the bacterial flagellum - is too complex to have evolved by natural selection is alleged, by a lamentably common but false syllogism, to support the "rival" intelligent design theory by default. This kind of default reasoning leaves completely open the possibility that, if the bacterial flagellum is too complex to have evolved, it might also be too complex to have been created. And indeed, a moment's thought shows that any God capable of creating a bacterial flagellum (to say nothing of a universe) would have to be a far more complex, and therefore statistically improbable, entity than the bacterial flagellum (or universe) itself - even more in need of an explanation than the object he is alleged to have created.
If complex organisms demand an explanation, so does a complex designer. And it's no solution to raise the theologian's plea that God (or the Intelligent Designer) is simply immune to the normal demands of scientific explanation. To do so would be to shoot yourself in the foot. You cannot have it both ways. Either ID belongs in the science classroom, in which case it must submit to the discipline required of a scientific hypothesis. Or it does not, in which case get it out of the science classroom and send it back into the church, where it belongs.
In fact, the bacterial flagellum is certainly not too complex to have evolved, nor is any other living structure that has ever been carefully studied. Biologists have located plausible series of intermediates, using ingredients to be found elsewhere in living systems. But even if some particular case were found for which biologists could offer no ready explanation, the important point is that the "default" logic of the creationists remains thoroughly rotten.
There is no evidence in favour of intelligent design: only alleged gaps in the completeness of the evolutionary account, coupled with the "default" fallacy we have identified. And, while it is inevitably true that there are incompletenesses in evolutionary science, the positive evidence for the fact of evolution is truly massive, made up of hundreds of thousands of mutually corroborating observations. These come from areas such as geology, paleontology, comparative anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, ethology, biogeography, embryology and - increasingly nowadays - molecular genetics.
The weight of the evidence has become so heavy that opposition to the fact of evolution is laughable to all who are acquainted with even a fraction of the published data. Evolution is a fact: as much a fact as plate tectonics or the heliocentric solar system.
Why, finally, does it matter whether these issues are discussed in science classes? There is a case for saying that it doesn't - that biologists shouldn't get so hot under the collar. Perhaps we should just accept the popular demand that we teach ID as well as evolution in science classes. It would, after all, take only about 10 minutes to exhaust the case for ID, then we could get back to teaching real science and genuine controversy.
Tempting as this is, a serious worry remains. The seductive "let's teach the controversy" language still conveys the false, and highly pernicious, idea that there really are two sides. This would distract students from the genuinely important and interesting controversies that enliven evolutionary discourse. Worse, it would hand creationism the only victory it realistically aspires to. Without needing to make a single good point in any argument, it would have won the right for a form of supernaturalism to be recognised as an authentic part of science. And that would be the end of science education in America.
Arguments worth having ...
The "Cambrian Explosion"
Although the fossil record shows that the first multicellular animals lived about 640m years ago, the diversity of species was low until about 530m years ago. At that time there was a sudden explosion of many diverse marine species, including the first appearance of molluscs, arthropods, echinoderms and vertebrates. "Sudden" here is used in the geological sense; the "explosion" occurred over a period of 10m to 30m years, which is, after all, comparable to the time taken to evolve most of the great radiations of mammals. This rapid diversification raises fascinating questions; explanations include the evolution of organisms with hard parts (which aid fossilisation), the evolutionary "discovery" of eyes, and the development of new genes that allowed parts of organisms to evolve independently.
The evolutionary basis of human behaviour
The field of evolutionary psychology (once called "sociobiology") maintains that many universal traits of human behaviour (especially sexual behaviour), as well as differences between individuals and between ethnic groups, have a genetic basis. These traits and differences are said to have evolved in our ancestors via natural selection. There is much controversy about these claims, largely because it is hard to reconstruct the evolutionary forces that acted on our ancestors, and it is unethical to do genetic experiments on modern humans.
Sexual versus natural selection
Although evolutionists agree that adaptations invariably result from natural selection, there are many traits, such as the elaborate plumage of male birds and size differences between the sexes in many species, that are better explained by "sexual selection": selection based on members of one sex (usually females) preferring to mate with members of the other sex that show certain desirable traits. Evolutionists debate how many features of animals have resulted from sexual as opposed to natural selection; some, like Darwin himself, feel that many physical features differentiating human "races" resulted from sexual selection.
The target of natural selection
Evolutionists agree that natural selection usually acts on genes in organisms - individuals carrying genes that give them a reproductive or survival advantage over others will leave more descendants, gradually changing the genetic composition of a species. This is called "individual selection". But some evolutionists have proposed that selection can act at higher levels as well: on populations (group selection), or even on species themselves (species selection). The relative importance of individual versus these higher order forms of selection is a topic of lively debate.
Natural selection versus genetic drift
Natural selection is a process that leads to the replacement of one gene by another in a predictable way. But there is also a "random" evolutionary process called genetic drift, which is the genetic equivalent of coin-tossing. Genetic drift leads to unpredictable changes in the frequencies of genes that don't make much difference to the adaptation of their carriers, and can cause evolution by changing the genetic composition of populations. Many features of DNA are said to have evolved by genetic drift. Evolutionary geneticists disagree about the importance of selection versus drift in explaining features of organisms and their DNA. All evolutionists agree that genetic drift can't explain adaptive evolution. But not all evolution is adaptive.
Further reading
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent
Website explaining evolution in user-friendly fashion
Climbing Mount Improbable
Richard Dawkin (illustrations by Lalla Ward), Penguin 1997
Evolution versus Creationism
Eugenie C Scott, Greenwood Press, 2004
Richard Dawkins is Charles Simonyi professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University, and Jerry Coyne is a professor in the department of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago
Richard Dawkins book 'The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life' is published by Phoenix in paperback today priced 9.99.
Whether 2/3rds of the population think it should be taught or not, Creationism is simply wrong from a realistic (ie, not faith-based) point of view. "Teaching the controversy" is idiotic. As the article asks, in a 20th century history class, would anyone suggest "teaching the controversy" and teaching the "theory" that the Holocaust never happened? After all, they are both just "theories." We should let the students make up their minds, right?

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 09-01-2005 5:07 PM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 154 of 180 (239719)
09-01-2005 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
09-01-2005 5:07 PM


I quite agree with you except that origin is still a matter of unresolved validity
Certainly. We aren't sure about the precise origin of the Universe, we just have a pretty good idea that has thus far withstood testing, thouhg it is sorely lacking in detail.
However, there is still no reason to teach religious ideas in a secular classroom environment. Religious dogma has as much validity as any other idea pulled from thin air - to teach it as possibly true means one must teach about pink unicorns, magic fairies, and the Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster. At the least it gives all religions equal validity (if one were to use the logic that only those ideas that have a large support base should be taught). I somehow doubt those who want Creation taught in schools also want the Hindu or Buddhist creation myths taught in science class, but they have equal validity with the Biblical myth in a scientific setting.
It's stupid to teach every idea that anyone has come up with (even restricting it to religious beliefs) and let the kids figure it out themselves. Is that how we should teach about the lunar landings? Should we teach kids about the lunar hoax "theory?" Perhaps we should let the kids decide if Armstrong ever walked on the moon. Maybe we should also teach the "theory" that the South won the American Civil War, or that the "alternative theory" that the plastic tips on the ends of shoelaces are called aglets, and their purpose is sinister.
Teaching the controversy and letting kids decide which is true for themselves is idiotic. When one side has evidence to support it and the other has none, when one side is supported by 200 years of research and the other is supported by religious belief, it is easily apparent that one side is simply wrong and has no place in the public school system, regardless of how many people believe in it.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 09-01-2005 5:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 09-02-2005 3:22 AM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 166 of 180 (239927)
09-02-2005 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
09-02-2005 3:22 AM


Re: Sorry to speculate and sound arrogant, but..
You honestly sound like a true unbeliever! You appear to have no knowledge of God, or having experienced a fragment of the power thereof....
You'd be quite surprised. My strong feelings regarding public school education stem from the fact that no religion has the right to force its views on those who do not follow it, and thus religious belief has no place in public school. Public education should only include those subjects which are secular and, in the case of science, have observable and experimental evidence to back them up.
In other words, keep religion in church and at the home, where it belongs. Public schools, as a place where children of all faiths and no faiths are instructed, is not the place for religious teachings of any sort, regardless of how the majority feels.
The seperation of church and state was devised expressly so that a minority religion could never be persecuted by a majority religion with the support of the state.
But what do you define as dogma? Lets concentrate..FIRSTLY...on this word, "dogma." I have actually never met anyone who fervantly feels a relational connection with pink unicorns, magic fairies or flying monsters of any chef! I have read about such people in psychological writings, but there are not too many around. You honestly have not actually prayed with or met any fervant Christians who fervantly knew that they had a relational connection with God? We both need to get out more!
Don't be dense. I also believe I have felt God's presence, and of course I have met others who feel the same way. I am a firm believer in God.
I brought up fairies and unicorns because, to those who are not Christian, Christian beliefs have just as much evidenciary support as magic invisible unicorns or the Giant Flying Spaggheti Monster. I'm not saying that God doesn't exist, only that Christians have no right to teach Biblical Creation or even Inteeligent Design in a public school setting in science class of all places. These things are philosophy ans theology, not science! Leave them where they belong, and everybody will get along just fine.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 09-02-2005 3:22 AM Phat has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024