Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   For those concerned with Free Speech (or Porn), it is time to get active.
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 92 of 304 (220371)
06-28-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by mikehager
06-27-2005 4:22 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
quote:
Perhaps you aren't trotting out the old, discredited idea that pornography incites violence.
Well, IIRC violent degrading porn does seem to cause more callous attitudes and acceptance of violent sexual degradation in viewers, but that nonviolent porn does not.
I also seem to recall that watching porn makes many men less satisfied and more critical of their partner's body, and makes many women more critical of their own bodies.
But this is just my recollection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mikehager, posted 06-27-2005 4:22 PM mikehager has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 8:35 AM nator has not replied
 Message 105 by Chiroptera, posted 06-28-2005 9:26 AM nator has replied
 Message 172 by gnojek, posted 06-28-2005 4:01 PM nator has replied
 Message 175 by Modulous, posted 06-28-2005 4:22 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 94 of 304 (220373)
06-28-2005 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Silent H
06-27-2005 7:12 PM


Re: Not surprising
There's always love involved?
Hmm, that's surprising.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Silent H, posted 06-27-2005 7:12 PM Silent H has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 95 of 304 (220374)
06-28-2005 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
06-27-2005 11:55 PM


quote:
The fact that pornography has always existed is an equally bogus point. It has never been treated as legitimate and flaunted before the public as it is now, and justifed as a Right.
Do you mean like it was treated as legitimate and important religious iconography thousands of years before your religion was invented?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 06-27-2005 11:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 8:39 AM nator has replied
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 06-28-2005 8:57 AM nator has replied
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 06-28-2005 9:08 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 304 (220381)
06-28-2005 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Silent H
06-28-2005 8:39 AM


But that particular society hasn't crumbled, and while India has had some tough times moving towards industrialization they are currently doing pretty well as they enbrace education and technology.
You're welcome for the pic. I hope they aren't taboo. I find them extremely stylized and symbolic so I hope they are not objectionable, any more than a Botticelli would be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 8:39 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 10:17 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 304 (220387)
06-28-2005 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
06-28-2005 8:57 AM


quote:
However, religious sex is condemned in the Bible, and India's extreme poverty and class divisions and cow worship and millions of "deities" don't exactly describe a prosperous well ordered society.
They have fallen on hard times recently, since British colonization.
But we have extreme poverty here in the states, and also class divisions.
And why do you so arrogantly scoff at cow worship?
You worship a book.
quote:
The West has been so prosperous because of our basic adherence to God's Law, including sexual propriety and respect.
Can you please explain to me how the Biblical practice of owning females and stoning them to death if they didn't cry out loud enough during their rape, or requiring them to marry their rapist, constitutes "respect"?
And anyway, like I said, India is on the cusp of a great deal of prosperity. They are basically where we were about 100 years ago during the industrial revolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 06-28-2005 8:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 06-28-2005 9:22 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 140 of 304 (220473)
06-28-2005 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Chiroptera
06-28-2005 9:26 AM


quote:
I'm not necessarily disputing your point as much a pointing out that the degradation of women and the cult of a narrow standard of beauty lies much, much deeper in our society.
Oh, yes, I agree that it's most definitely not just porn. I would say that porn is probably wider in what it considers attractive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Chiroptera, posted 06-28-2005 9:26 AM Chiroptera has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 143 of 304 (220476)
06-28-2005 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by dsv
06-28-2005 9:44 AM


Re: A different thought
quote:
Industries evolve for one reason and one reason only: demand.
That's true, except that industry has also gotten very good at using advertizing and marketing techniques to create wants and needs in a population where before there were none.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by dsv, posted 06-28-2005 9:44 AM dsv has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 1:52 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 146 of 304 (220479)
06-28-2005 1:49 PM


An aside:
I was watching a Daily Show the other night and there was a field interview in which a female porn actress and actor both were members of the Republican party.
The thing I had noticed was that the woman was either really drunk, under the influence of some drug, or has some kind of mental deficiency which makes her appear really stupid and unable to pay attention.
How prevalent is drug addiction in the porn industry these days compared to straight acting?

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 1:51 PM nator has not replied
 Message 154 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 2:00 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 180 of 304 (220561)
06-28-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Chiroptera
06-28-2005 2:20 PM


Re: A different thought
quote:
On the other hand, back in my high school and college days, I rarely saw a porn film where the audience did not include women brought by their boy friends.
...which doesn't mean they exactly wanted to be there.
Women have long done sexual things in order to keep a man.
"If you really loved me you would do X."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Chiroptera, posted 06-28-2005 2:20 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 6:32 PM nator has not replied
 Message 188 by Chiroptera, posted 06-28-2005 6:43 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 181 of 304 (220563)
06-28-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by gnojek
06-28-2005 4:01 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
quote:
Actually, most of the girls in porn these days make me totally appreciate my girfriend. She's way more attractive than the large majority of these girls.
Well, isn't that great for her.
Well, I'm going to be totally honest and tell you that I'm not as attractive as most of the women in porn that I have seen.
I'm not unattractive, but I'm far from cellulite-and saddlebag-free.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by gnojek, posted 06-28-2005 4:01 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 6:38 PM nator has replied
 Message 282 by gnojek, posted 07-05-2005 6:19 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 182 of 304 (220564)
06-28-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Modulous
06-28-2005 4:22 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
quote:
Pictures of celebrities doing their normal routine with arrows pointing at cellulite, or at the belly that is forming, or an overly large bottom, wrinkles or the wrong dress. Maybe its meant to make people feel better than nobody has a perfect body, but I think it has the opposite effect to. "Hey, if Kylie's knees are too fat, then mine are freakish!"
Other than the gossip mags reaching possibly more people, I see no difference.
You don't really see cellulite, spare tires or many wrinkles on women in most porn, do you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Modulous, posted 06-28-2005 4:22 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 6:25 PM nator has not replied
 Message 187 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 6:42 PM nator has not replied
 Message 198 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2005 1:45 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 193 of 304 (220590)
06-28-2005 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Silent H
06-28-2005 6:38 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
quote:
You showed a pic of yourself and are hot.
Thanks, but honestly, you didn't see me naked.
Most people look better with carefully chosen clothing, most definitely me.
quote:
My guess is you just haven't seen much porn at all, and if you saw any probably concentrated on girls that you felt looked better than yourself.
Honestly, how much porn have you seen? How much of the market have you looked at to find what the average girl looks like?
I have looked around the internet, seen stuff that was supposed to appeal to straight men, to lesbians, to straight women, to gay men.
Nobody looked like me. They were nearly all either shapely and thin or really obese. I even saw a site which was supposed to appear as a diary or scorecard of a man who was having sex with "plain, ugly women" because they were so unattractive as to be desperate, and none of them had the body fat that I do. And I don't have a huge amount.
I'm sorry, I have searched specifically for average women several times out of curiosity, but I mostly only find extremes.
quote:
There are whole sections devoted to the "not perfect" ideal, and even the "perfect" girls generally have flaws which can be seen.
Like I said, I went looking and while it may be a niche, it certainly ain't common.
quote:
Pride in one's body for what it is, and your sexuality, is all that is really necessary to be sexy. You may not be everyone's favorite, but does everyone please you?
Yeah, well, that's easy to say and easy to intellectually "know" but not always so easy to believe.
Look, I'm not stupid. I know who the men at my workplace are attracted to and who they aren't. I know who the boys and men at high school and college were attracted to and who they weren't. I'm not the type that men generally think of as beautiful or sexy, I'm just not. I have found this to be the case both during times of low self esteem and high. I just don't care during the high self-esteem days.
You know who gives me that kind of flirtatious attention at work and in life? The 65 year old men and the middle-aged self-important ex-hippies who did too much acid in the late 60's who corner me to recite to me their manifesto. Oh, and the lesbians. The lesbians are sweet that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 6:38 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2005 10:10 PM nator has replied
 Message 200 by Silent H, posted 06-29-2005 5:44 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 195 of 304 (220596)
06-28-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by crashfrog
06-28-2005 10:10 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
Thanks, really, you are very sweet.
I guess I'm maybe just having a bad day and I'm letting all the critical voices in my head win.
I really just wish it wasn't so hard sometimes. It feels like such a lonely battle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2005 10:10 PM crashfrog has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 202 of 304 (220631)
06-29-2005 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Modulous
06-29-2005 1:45 AM


Re: Spare tires
You don't really see cellulite, spare tires or many wrinkles on women in most porn, do you?
quote:
No, but I don't see them laughing at and judging people with the spare tires very often in porn either.
Well, let's see. Porn is supposed to be about (mostly male) sexual fantasy, so men are going to want to see beautiful, young, tight female bodies for the most part, right? Women in straight modeling and film are over the hill when they're 30 (although that's better these days, it's still very difficult for a "mature" actress to get parts as a romantic lead because they just don't exist). In my perusal of online porn, it's "teen" or "barely legal" that is by far the most plentiful genre, followed by women in their early twenties.
So, porn may not laught at people with spare tires and cellulite, but it is clear that such qualities are not considered beautiful or desireable by their absence.
Probably the reason you don't see the rejection is that the girls who get rejected never make it into the porn because they got a little too fat or old or started to get some orange peel here and there.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-29-2005 08:31 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2005 1:45 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by CK, posted 06-29-2005 8:37 AM nator has not replied
 Message 205 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2005 9:58 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 204 of 304 (220642)
06-29-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Silent H
06-29-2005 5:44 AM


Re: Ted Bundy
quote:
I simply have no clue how you can have looked around and not found someone that looks like you... someone average (if indeed you insist you are average). The growing market is in average people just shooting themselves, sometimes in really wild adventures. I suppose it could be that you do not choose the right search terms, or that corporate porn gets the first few pages of hits to go to?
Well, I think I've done a pretty extensive search with words like "average", "normal", and "natural" as terms and most women depicted have lower appearence of body fat.
Just the fact that I have had to look really hard to find someone that looks like me tends to support my contention that porn in general is not exactly uplifting and reassuring to average women because it's rare that we see us there.
quote:
Photography of any kind is extremely selective. People first select a small amount of the person to focus on, and then before handing out the material deselect anything they don't want to see. Doesn't this simply make sense?
Point taken. Still, I'm not sure how a photographer could hide a spare tire.
quote:
I agree that I have seen girls called "ugly" or "plain" and they simply weren't. This is done so often in modern media that it drives me up a wall. Movies like Dogfight, and Cats&Dogs had super hot girls supposedly being the "ugly" ones... yeah, right!
That makes me roll my eyes, too. They pretty much put glasses on a girl who in real life was probably the homecoming queen and call her the "plain nerdy one". Never are they fat, or have acne, or really bad hair.
That's why I liked "Welcome to the Dollhouse" so much. They actually cast a not-stunning, actually average looking girl.
I could SO relate.
quote:
I would like to know the name of the site you looked at. Don't type its name such as to create a link from here to there, but give me enough to go on.
Sorry, I can't find the link right now, but I'll try to locate it later.
I went to the two sites you suggested and while they do show a small range of body types and the women pictured were certainly not "model types", and a few of them come a bit closer to what I look like, none of them really look like me.
I'd have to lose about 10 or 15 pounds to look like most of them, unless it's all camera angles and Photoshop.
I do have to say that some of the photography and artwork on Janesguide is beautiful, though.
quote:
You know what? Try being a man that girls do not find sexy. Just be "average" and find out how many women will come beating down your door. Indeed look to any media and find how many "average guys" are portrayed as someone women SHOULD be attracted to.
I'm sorry, but the male leads in almost every sitcom on TV are less atrractive than the women who play their wives and girlfriends.
"Funny men get the pretty girl" seems to be the message I get.
quote:
Generally if an average guy is with a woman in media it is usually stamped as obviously he just got her with his money, and he is almost always abusive.
I don't know. Hasn't it been a traditional notion (although changing in recent years) that women don't care as much about looks as men?
quote:
Mainstream corporate porn like Playboy is much harder on MEN than women, though women seem to gloss over that fact. It is all about self improvement because women want a guy who is in fantastic shape and a lot of money.
I would say that the "fantastic shape" thing is probably pretty recent. The money thing isn't, that's true.
But Playboy also teaches men what they should find attractive, which is the tall, long-haired, blonde, young, large-breasted, caucasian, thin, pliant woman.
quote:
If you find average looking and ugly guys in porn that are not there as simply a freak show, it is because they have one significant trait... well two actually. They have a very unaverage member, and they can get it up on cue. Yeah, that really helps the average guy who has neither of those assets.
Well, if men are getting lots of self-esteem problems from porn I am surprised they spend so much money on it.
Somehow I think that men focus on the women in porn, because the woman is the focus.
quote:
As a guy that was found generally unattractive through high school and into college let me tell you who gave me flirtatious attention: 50-60 year old guys, or rabidly horny young gay men. I did not have the fortune of meeting any lesbians, and the gay men were not "sweet".
Well, then, you and I have something in common.
quote:
This cuts everyone every way. You are hot now, forget the past and embrace yourself. It is apparent you already have at least two guys under 60 who say you are attractive. And my guess is your husband is not over 60.
Sigh.
I wish it were that easy. Believe me, I have been working on it every day since I was 19.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Silent H, posted 06-29-2005 5:44 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Silent H, posted 06-29-2005 12:39 PM nator has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024