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Author Topic:   For those concerned with Free Speech (or Porn), it is time to get active.
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 211 of 304 (220691)
06-29-2005 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
06-29-2005 12:55 PM


Women and self-pleasure
quote:
I might also point out that you are speaking from the male point of view, about what's "healthy" for MEN, while a woman really might have a lot healthier sense of security and healthier self-esteem if she could count on a man's finding all his sexual pleasure with HER just as she is without the threat of his thinking of someone else or wishing she looked or acted different.
But lots of women like to use sex toys such as vibrators and dildos - they are clearly not finding all of their sexual pleasure with a male.Is this a bad thing? Women should not be sexually aware of their own bodies and take pleasure in their own company? Is that not the ultimate "security"?
quote:
There isn't the slightest pornographic image in the Bible. It describes many sexual situations but there is nothing pornographic -- erotically stimulating -- about any of them.
ah...but those things are all in the eye of the beholder. There was a famous trial about a poem called"The Love That Dares To Speak Its Name"which featured a centurion performing sexual acts on Jesus. Clearly this work was inspired by the Bible.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 29-Jun-2005 01:09 PM
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 29-Jun-2005 01:13 PM

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 Message 210 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 12:55 PM Faith has not replied

docpotato
Member (Idle past 5047 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 212 of 304 (220711)
06-29-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
06-29-2005 12:55 PM


Re: Porn good bad or neutral
There isn't the slightest pornographic image in the Bible. It describes many sexual situations but there is nothing pornographic -- erotically stimulating -- about any of them.
I found many of the sexual situations in the Bible to be erotically stimulating in my youth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 12:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 2:27 PM docpotato has replied
 Message 222 by Tal, posted 06-29-2005 3:02 PM docpotato has replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 213 of 304 (220716)
06-29-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
06-29-2005 12:55 PM


Nothing erotically stimulating in the Bible?
Faith says:
"There isn't the slightest pornographic image in the Bible. It describes many sexual situations but there is nothing pornographic --erotically stimulating -- about any of them."
Come now - I guess it truly is in the eye of the beholder but can you honestly say there is nothing erotically stimulating here?
Song of Solomon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 12:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 214 of 304 (220717)
06-29-2005 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by docpotato
06-29-2005 2:14 PM


Re: Porn good bad or neutral
Well, if the mere briefly worded information that David lusted after Bathsheba or Amnon seduced Tamar or an earlier Tamar seduced Judah etc etc etc is enough to do it, who needs the elaborate explicit scenarios of porn?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by docpotato, posted 06-29-2005 2:14 PM docpotato has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 219 by Silent H, posted 06-29-2005 2:46 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 215 of 304 (220719)
06-29-2005 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by deerbreh
06-29-2005 2:25 PM


Re: Nothing erotically stimulating in the Bible?
Well I find the Song of Solomon's imagery (flocks of goats, armies with banners, towers and walls) to remove it from anything directly erotic myself, in fact it's the one book in the Bible I do tend to allegorize, but to each his own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by deerbreh, posted 06-29-2005 2:25 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by deerbreh, posted 06-29-2005 2:57 PM Faith has replied

docpotato
Member (Idle past 5047 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 216 of 304 (220724)
06-29-2005 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
06-29-2005 2:27 PM


Re: Porn good bad or neutral
Well, if the mere briefly worded information that David lusted after Bathsheba or Amnon seduced Tamar or an earlier Tamar seduced Judah etc etc etc is enough to do it, who needs the elaborate explicit scenarios of porn?
'cause they are also erotically stimulating and being erotically stimulated is as pleasing and valid to me as any other emotional stimulation from an art form can be. (For instance, being scared by a movie)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 2:27 PM Faith has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 217 of 304 (220726)
06-29-2005 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Silent H
06-29-2005 12:39 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
holmes writes:
I've been trying to do an extensive search and not finding any real adult sites at Yahoo at all. The fact is most indies sites, indeed most porn sites, do not come up in searches like that. You best bet is to comb through yahoo groups or find link sites (such as Janes) and search from there.
Ok, not that I try to find straight porn... I find them absolutely horrendous to look at (how the hell can you people look at them without a sense of vomit coming up your esophagus?)... but you need to press on the little "preference" link on the right of the search input area and disable the filter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Silent H, posted 06-29-2005 12:39 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Silent H, posted 06-29-2005 2:48 PM coffee_addict has replied
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 218 of 304 (220727)
06-29-2005 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
06-29-2005 12:55 PM


Re: Porn good bad or neutral
That's not what I said. I said I can't grant that you MIGHT be right.
Regardless of your firm belief that I am wrong, you cannot entertain the theoretical possibility that you are not omnipotent and may in fact be errant, and so I could be right?
You cannot do so as a theoretical in order for us to come together and form a community together? It will always be a relationship where you tell me how wrong I am and that nothing I can do or think is right and so should be treated legally as wrong?
Despite my firm conviction that you are way off the mark as to what this world is about I am able to grant that theoretical so as to justify working with you, as well as not having a govt dedicated to your elimination.
That people reserve sex for marriage, that they don't indulge in any artificial stimulation or other extramarital sexual interests but reserve themselves wholeheartedly for their mate, who is treated with love and respect as The One and Only, is unhealthy for human beings?
Yes. The idea that sex is bad unless restricted to a narrow arbitrary situation that does not comply with most people's human sexual desires is not healthy. It leads to disatisfaction with onesself and one's partner and is more often going to lead to disruptive behavior of some kind.
I might add that it has recently been shown that masturbation has health benefits for men. So defiance of some Xian ideals has real world advantages.
while a woman really might have a lot healthier sense of security and healthier self-esteem if she could count on a man's finding all his sexual pleasure with HER just as she is without the threat of his thinking of someone else or wishing she looked or acted different.
She might have an even healthier sense of security and self-esteem if she divorced sexual pleasure from ideas of commited relationships. Hoping to find all one's sexual desires filled from one external source who also takes care of your longterm emotional needs is counter to nature.
At the very least masturbation and fantasy can help a couple stay happy sexually with each other by compensating for the lack of actual diversity. That is where erotica can play a role.
I can't grant you the possibility that you MIGHT be right.
Even in the Xian religion there is only one omnipotent being and I am most certain it is not you. The arrogance you are expressing with that sentiment appears to have reached the point of heresy. Once you admit you are not omnipotent, you must admit you can be wrong. Once you admit you can be wrong, you must admit there is a chance that I could be right... though you doubt it with all your heart and soul.
I ask merely that you grant me the right to HAVE my view and to express it. Occupying a nation together does not require granting the possibility that anyone is right about anything, much less that they ARE right, it only requires that we *tolerate* with some degree of civility each other's views that we nevertheless regard as absolutely totally completely incontrovertibly unmitigatedly and even pigheadedly wrong as judged by our own
I could almost grant you this, but I think tolerance includes the belief that it is okay that I feel my beliefs are right. That is to say that it is not wrong for me to have my beliefs, even if my beliefs are wrong.
If one believes that it is not only that my beliefs are wrong, but that it is wrong for me to even have them, I don't see any amount of tolerance coming from that position. How can we legislate together when we have no common acknowledgement that we will accept as possible within our nation, the other person's beliefs?
If in fact it contributes to increased murder and rape of women in the culture
There is only counterevidence to that "belief" of yours, so there goes that.
or puts pressures on marriages of the sort I have been focusing on
It can but only if a person allows it to by not having a healthy and open relationship (as in honest communication) with one's spouse as well as with onesself. Porn cannot damage something that does not already have some as yet unseen problems.
feeds some men's dehumanizing images of women, as bodies and not persons,
It absolutely certainly can feed some men's dehumanizing images of women. There is just no question of this. The problem being that not all porn can do this and not all men have fantasies, much less live in a reality of dehumanizing women. So yes a select group of sexually explicit images can be used by a select group of men to do something you don't like. Big clue, those same men can use lots of other things to feed those same images without the sexual imagery.
what's neutral about it?
The fact that sexual imagery can be of many different varieties and used in a variety of different ways by people with diverse tastes. It is neutral in aspect until viewed by a subjective individual.
All the same could have been said about Xianity or the Bible. You would likely defend the Bible as having been an inspiration to many. Yep, its neutral.
And if I'm right about these things, there is nothing subjective about my view, it's quite objective.
But you are wrong, so you are not right. Why not read up on the subject rather than continually speculating.
There isn't the slightest pornographic image in the Bible. It describes many sexual situations but there is nothing pornographic -- erotically stimulating -- about any of them.
It is certainly sexually explicit with descriptions of some very violent sexuality. EZEKIEL 23:20 is a very potent passage from the "greatest story ever told".
Girls having sex with men who have dicks like donkeys and cum like horses (or was that the other way around?)? Yeah, the KJ version may have decided to hide the exact wording using some less colorful language, but the meaning is there in spades. It even involves underage sex and rape on the orders of God to fulfill HIS desires.
If put into film directly (literally) as written it would also be pretty steamy and well illegal today. How much running around and sleeping with various people and seductions occur? How about just fantasizing about King David's healthfully described sexual appetites.
Song of Solomon is supposed to be stimulating and is admitted as such by many, so I don't even know where you get off claiming it is never stimulating.
BUT overall porn is massively male-dominated and male-oriented and the women play roles suited to the male fantasies.
Okay, and what exactly is wrong with that? If the majority of buyers are something and so the market reflects that majority... is that bad?
It depends on whether it is good or bad or neutral. I have been arguing all along here that it is bad for relationships, bad for women, bad for marriages etc.
But it isn't bad for all relationships, women, marriages. My guess is it is only bad for bad relationships, insecure women, and bad marriages.
It has actually can help all three which is why it has been popular throughout history and cultures and is growing in popularity now.
Understanding??? Understanding??? Grow???
Yes. Or are you uncertain what the definition of those words are? The question I raise is if a thing (X) leads to a person liking something they had not realized they might like, is that bad or growth?
I would just like to keep the point simple and focused: Male oriented porn often promotes a dehumanizing and demeaning image of women which may have many degrees of exploitative and violent expressions, and is a form of infidelity as experienced by many women.
Well its much simpler than that: porn is a form of erotic entertainment catering to a variety of tastes, so some sections will not appeal to everyone, and insecure women will be unable to differentiate between a man's fantasizing with real infidelity.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 12:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 10:37 PM Silent H has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 219 of 304 (220728)
06-29-2005 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
06-29-2005 2:27 PM


Re: Porn good bad or neutral
who needs the elaborate explicit scenarios of porn?
Yeah, why did they make all those Biblical Epics during the 20th century, filled with beautiful women and hot men all being lusty. I mean Samson and Delilah? Who needed that?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 2:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 9:36 PM Silent H has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 220 of 304 (220729)
06-29-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by coffee_addict
06-29-2005 2:42 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
I find them absolutely horrendous to look at (how the hell can you people look at them without a sense of vomit coming up your esophagus?).
What do you mean by "them"? I suppose there might be things that make me want to puke, but not on that regular a basis.
If it's just regular sex what can possibly be that nauseating?
but you need to press on the little "preference" link on the right of the search input area and disable the filter.
This I have no idea what you are talking about either.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by coffee_addict, posted 06-29-2005 2:42 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by coffee_addict, posted 06-29-2005 3:20 PM Silent H has replied

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 221 of 304 (220735)
06-29-2005 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
06-29-2005 2:30 PM


Not directly erotic? Do tell.
"A bundle of myrrh is my well-beloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts."
"As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."
"My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies."
"Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon."
"My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him."
"Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies."
"Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 2:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 222 of 304 (220737)
06-29-2005 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by docpotato
06-29-2005 2:14 PM


Re: Porn good bad or neutral
There isn't the slightest pornographic image in the Bible. It describes many sexual situations but there is nothing pornographic -- erotically stimulating -- about any of them.
I found many of the sexual situations in the Bible to be erotically stimulating in my youth.
Ezekiel 23:20
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..."
-Army Cadence
"A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future."
- General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by docpotato, posted 06-29-2005 2:14 PM docpotato has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by docpotato, posted 06-29-2005 3:09 PM Tal has replied

docpotato
Member (Idle past 5047 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 223 of 304 (220742)
06-29-2005 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Tal
06-29-2005 3:02 PM


Re: Porn good bad or neutral
Are you attempting to share what you found stimulating?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Tal, posted 06-29-2005 3:02 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Chiroptera, posted 06-29-2005 3:12 PM docpotato has not replied
 Message 226 by Tal, posted 06-29-2005 3:21 PM docpotato has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 304 (220744)
06-29-2005 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by docpotato
06-29-2005 3:09 PM


Re: Porn good bad or neutral
quote:
...Whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
Well, at the risk of earning some peoples' displeasure, I will say that this is a fairly accurate description of a lot of the porn I have seen. So someone obviously finds it stimulating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by docpotato, posted 06-29-2005 3:09 PM docpotato has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 225 of 304 (220746)
06-29-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Silent H
06-29-2005 2:48 PM


Re: Ted Bundy
holmes writes:
This I have no idea what you are talking about either.
Once inside, look for the following.
This message has been edited by GAW-Snow, 06-29-2005 03:24 PM
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 06-29-2005 02:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Silent H, posted 06-29-2005 2:48 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Silent H, posted 06-29-2005 6:12 PM coffee_addict has replied

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