Permission to come on to the land (asking for forgiveness from the Indians)

I just spent the weekend in a conference. Part of the conference was spent teaching us how a certain group of evangelists (dream interpreters) had some Native American Indians approach them, and tell them that they could not be blessed by God, unless they asked for permission to be on the Land.This started something, and it is unclear to me how it came about, but it started by someone saying that they were seeking forgiveness from the Indians for what our forefathers did. This lead the Indians to anger, and then it was resolved, and a big ceremony took place, where this group of Christians repented, and asked for forgiveness from the Indians, and the Grand Chief was there. Some people saw an angel appear, including the Chief. The angel told the Chief that he also had to repent, and drop the anger, and bitterness over losing the land to us so many years ago.This all went very well, and many truths were unearthed.Now these Christians are feeling a calling to go around and start teaching of all that happened. They are finding out, that niether secular people, or Christian people, are interested in asking for forgiveness.They find it funny how everyone in the world knows about the 6 million Jews who died, but few know about the 100 million natives died, and how they died. It seems like America is in denial about this, and these Christians feel it is time to set the record straight. They even believe in the curses put on the land (both Indian and Christian) They believe the land was healed in the areas were these ceremonies took place.I wish I could be more specific about this, but there was more to learn about it, than could be taught in the short time we had together.My question is: How do you feel about such a concept of asking for forgiveness from the Indians about stealing their land?I am personally not proud of what our forefathers did. I realize that many Indians died from desease, but thats not the only way they went. Edited by riVeRraT, : spelling...ITs late!Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added the "(asking for forgiveness from the Indians)" part to the topic title. Would have added the full "(asking for forgiveness from the Indians about stealing their land?)", but it was too many characters.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

A few days ago while I was having a long drive, I listened to an npr program on native Americans and the south. In the 40's, the southern states decided to characterize everyone into white and black. So, if you're asian, you were labeled as black. If you were indian, you were labeled as black. If you were middle eastern, you were labeled as black. The goal was to erase some of the native tribes' identity.Anyway, long story short, they interviewed an indian woman. She said that by having her sons labeled as native americans worried her. She worried for her children and grandchildren. The reporter asked her why, and she told us a story about her son. Her son was in high school. He looked particularly white (mix) so everyone thought he was white. He had a girlfriend who was also white. She invited him over to dinner with her family. While they were eating, her father asked him what his mother's last name was, and he told him. Then, everyone became quiet. For the rest of the evening, nobody said a word. He finished eating and promptly left.Next monday, his girlfriend met him at school and told him they couldn't see each other anymore because he was a black person and that her family had forbid her to see him anymore.The reporter asked her when this was and she said (drum rolls) 1998. 1998 Virginia.Don't you just love the fact that these are the same people that vote conservative? You know, when they came up with bullshit issues like interracial marriage and gay marriage and all that crap?

I don't see the point in asking for forgiveness.Make reparations.

I'm all for forgiveness, but does this country actually have the money that it would take for reparations? Everyone seemingly thinks that the United States is somehow still loaded like we used to be.What with Dubya spending our future Social Security money in Iraq, we would be hard pressed to come up with 10% of the money that reparations would require.I'm basically saying that America is now everyones country and our government does not have unlimited wealth anymore.

Fair enough.Makes forgiveness kind of hollow if you don't back it up with action.Sort of like if you steal all of my money, spend it and then say "sorry but I can't pay it back, but I am sorry".I know it's not exactly the same thing (because it would be your ancestors stealing mine's money) but that is how I would feel.

Its more like me saying "Sorry for what my ancestors have done. They owe a lot of debts that I simply can't pay."Forgiveness would thus extend to both sides.If you didn't forgive me for what my ancestors did, how could we even begin to heal?

Are they under some kind of obligation to forgive? What are we forgiving them for? For not being extinct?Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

Actually, the only reparation I can think of that's good enough is if we evacuate an entire state, say California, and turn it over to the natives. After that, we then use our international bullying tactics to force the rest of the world into recognizing the newly formed Native American nation.I'm not joking by the way. I really think we should turn over back a significant portion of the land for them to have their own nation.

I think according to their beliefs, it is the way of the ancient Indians. Because at first the Indians did not want to forgive, and then the Grand Chief said this. That is around the time that the angel appeared. Not everyone saw the angel.From what I gather, there are many parallel things in the two religions. There was mention of the Indians being promised the "black book" in their culture/religion. when many things were revealed to them about the bible, they accepted it as a continuation of their own faith. There are many Christian Natives today.So forgiveness is part of their culture. For being bitter about what was done to them. I know that sounds ridiculus, but if they are convicted by the great spirit to do it, then it is up to us as Christians to accept it, and forgive. Then the healing can take place.This whole process is also not a one time deal. Once you open up that can of worms, you must become part of their culture.

I think forgiveness and healing happen at an individual level, not a political level.I've worked with a lot of aboriginal people and I find that they have a sense of humour about it. On a warm summer day, I'll tell them, "I can see why we stole this land from you." They can appreciate my appreciation for the land.All they want as individuals is to be treated like anybody else.At the political level - Federal government vis-a-vis aboriginal governments - it's not about forgiveness, it's about money.

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First, we took their land. Then, we broke every treaty we ever made with them and sent them on the trail of tears. Now, we are demanding their forgiveness by taking advantage of their ancient culture? I'm sorry, but this is sounding more and more like another ploy by the white man. They have every right to be bitter. If I belong to a race that was almost driven to extinction and then my persecutors tell me that according to my tradition I have to forgive "hahaha", I would be outraged and very bitter.I don't care what your christian morals tell you, there is nothing for us to forgive them for. They have every right to be bitter, and we are obligated for generations to come to make up for what we've done to them.

If you go back and read the OP, you see that the angel told the Chief to repent, not the white man. At no time was it a requirement for the Indians to repent, and ask for forgiveness, it was done by their own free will. No they don't and neither would a good disciple of Christ. According to both religions, forgiveness is required, or part of the religion/culture.I'll ignore the rest of your post, since you seem to have the wrong idea, and mis-read what was going on.

Was the angel a white person? It's not what the indians decided that concerned me. It's the attitude the white people had while asking for their forgiveness that concerns me.Whenever I've done something wrong and ask for forgiveness, I do it fully prepared to be not forgiven, because to forgive or not should solely depend on the people I am asking for forgiveness. From what I've read, the christians approached this whole thing fully expecting to be forgiven. Based on this fact alone, I wonder how sincere they really were. There you go again. I really wonder how sincere this whole thing really is. The "no they don't" tells me you are demanding them to forgive rather than asking them to. Again, I must question the sincerity.

I don't know, it was an angel. No, I think the person who started it, did not really understand what she was doing. The initial response from the Indians was anger. Then there was much talking about it, and the Indians graciously let them ask for forgiveness. To be forgiven was not expected, as it should not be. Why would you lay the whole thing on me? I didn't make the rules of either religion.I am pointing out that to be genuine in either religion, forgiveness must be asked, and received. I don't think the Christians even knew that about the Indians when this whole thing started.No-one is demanding anything, except maybe God, so stop the BS about sincerity. Why would you want to ruin such a beautiful event with accusations?