Permission to come on to the land (asking for forgiveness from the Indians)

Can I ask which Native American religion is being discussed here? It wasn't then, and isn't now, some concrete code symbolizing one belief system.Back then, discussing the idea of forgiveness with a member of the Iroquois Nation would probably get you a totally different response then when discussing it with a Dakota or an Apache

I'm not. I'm laying the whole thing on my entire race, my forefathers, your forefathers, and everyone who's sucking the juice out of this stolen land (citizens and immigrants alike).But YOU are the one that's expecting the indians to forgive. You are using a cultural loophole to get what you want: forgiveness. You are also using a religious loophole. "My god wants you to forgive, so you have to forgive."If there is any sincerety in you at all, you should stop pointing out that they have to forgive because it's their culture to do so or/and because the judeo-christian god wants them to. Forgive or not is entirely up to them. Neither you nor me have any say in whether they should/ought forgive us or not.I guess we're having a difficult time understanding each other because we're not wired to think the same way. You think it's ok to use cultural and religious loopholes to demand forgiveness, and I think that's just disgusting. You think you have a say in whether they should forgive or not by pointing out their cultural values and your religion, and I think we should have no say at all. Which one of us is trying to ruin a "beautiful event"? The person who's nosing in and say that the people being asked for forgiveness HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO FORGIVE (either because of their cultural background or because the judeo-christian god says so) or the person who's trying to remind the first person that it's not any of our goddamn bussiness to tell the people being asked for forgiveness what to decide?Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

these are nasty things which generally don't solve anything in an environment which is so far removed from the event. let me give you a little example.let's say i moved to this country 50 years ago and i bought land. this land was stolen from someone else 200 years ago. but i bought it fair and square. so if the person the land was stolen from automatically gets it back, who pays me for my lost property? do i get reparations?i don't really understand the political situation of native peoples. i don't know anything abot their citizenship, and i know very little about how they have built their local governments. however, i think the reservation system needs to be fixed. but, we have a number of people who would, no doubt, be offended by social programs to reduce the infections they have acquired from us (such as joblessness, obesity, alcoholism, what have you). and yet these problems need to be fixed. native schools and colleges need to be funded and staffed. native aimed job programs and occupational training facilities need to be funded and staffed. maybe there could be some form of assistance to help people get their land back, but really, almost no one now on the land was responsible for the theft. no one in the government now was responsible for the theft or the genocides. we can only fix current problems. we can only fix the issues we now contribute to.is someone going to pay reparations to my scottish family for the land and lives lost to england?i appreciate the anger and the heartache associated with these issues, but a wholesale return of privately owned lands isn't going to solve the problem, nor is it even feasible. what about government lands you ask? like our parks and preserved lands. no one lives on them, that should be easy right? but those lands are maintained by tax money and for the enjoyment of all people of any background, and for the preservation of specific sites and animals. do those public spaces get lost because of events we can't change? in rwanda, i think reparations are a perfectly reasonable option. various people of various labels have had property confiscated wrongly or been pushed off their homes. lots of people have lost breadwinners and all kinds of family. but these claims are recent and against people who are, for the most part, still living. but destroying new lives to fix the lives of those who are long dead is far beyond impractical.as to forgiveness. i am not responsible for the actions of the dead. perhaps i have somehow benefitted from them, but no more than had i been born on any other land in any other world. if someone thinks they are so angry at me, then they need to deal with that. i can only do what i am capable of doing.and for god sake, we need to get the government to even acknowledge the ongoing genocide of the natives before we can even hope to amend any of the issues.also, i live in florida. the seminoles here are LOADED. they just bought the whole hardrock franchise. can you imagine?Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

I don't think it is religion for tham, as much as it is a culture. To learn about it, is to be part of it.I would have to ask the persons involved, and I am not sure when I will get to speak to them again, as they live in Texas, and New Hampshire.
I will remember, because this whole topic fascinates me.

????????????? Huh? huh?I don't expect forgiveness, I think I mentioned that at least twive inthis short thread.It was the Indians who felt themselves to offer their forgiveness over their bitterness. I can relate to that, and I find it EXTREMELY mature of the Indians to do so. They realize that much time has gone by, and I or anyone of today have little to do with what happened. So why be bitter at us? Especially someone who is asking for forgiveness?It's not like we are the President and refusing them anything. Heck if it was up to me, I would love to see them get retrobution. Even if it cost me tax dollars. No, I am not, don't you get it. I think you are in space. Us asking for forgiveness has nothing to do with them asking for forgiveness. Don't you get it?I find it shocking that they would ask forgiveness, and makes me love and respect them, that much more.And I can point out that both, them and us have to forgive because of our religion, it's a fact, and you can't change that. At no point in this thread, was anyone demanded to give forgiveness. Where do you get this stuff? I think you are so angry, you just make it up, so you can argue with me. I don't have a say in it. That is something you just made up from the blue, because you are angry. It is the facts, are the kind of person that likes to deny facts to suite your own needs? I thought you ran with the logical bunch. Of course we have no say.
But it is there way, and if they were genuine, they would teach us their way, by showing us. They are better than us for doing so. Get a life.Go back and read the thread, please.

So are you saying that the Indians should not be bitter about what happened, only bitter about what is currently happening to them? agreed.

I think it's stupid.It's stupid to think that you bear any responsiblity for your forefathers actions, and it's stupid to think even if you did you could do anything about it now. Everyone involved is long since dead.Of course I'm not American. Should I be paying reperations to the Celts?

Religion...culture...call it what you want...there is NO culture singular. It is cultureS, plural

it's not really my call to say what they should be bitter about. but, there's not really anything that we can do to change what happened, is there?now maybe my perspective on this is a little off, because i don't know what it's like to think of myself as part of a people group, because i don't. but, what happened didn't really happen to anyone still alive. the only thing that has happened to anyone alive is being born into a world in which they are treated as aliens and where many of them are restricted in movement to a place they never selected for themselves.

Frankly, when you do talk to them try and get some specifics. So far based on what you reported here in this thread it seems simply another example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance, supremely insulting, absurd beyond belief, just utter nonsense and very likely totally made up.There is no Native American Culture, never has been.There were HUNDREDS of Native American Cultures and they differed as much as cultures anywhere in the world.To trot in nonsense like the Angel showing up is pure theatrics, designed to sway the gullible with emotion so that they don't notice that there is absolutely no reason or truth to the subject except more Christian Cult of Ignorance Propaganda.When you do talk with them, get names, dates, confirmation, locations and find out if they know anything at all about the histories of the Native American peoples, cause it sure looks like they are clueless.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

yes, bitch. where's my money.well. i'm a pict, but whatever. same deal.

Hi RRI fhave found this thread kind of insulting and offensive. I understand you did not intend it so, but that you do not see it kind of adds to the fact. As Jar pointed out, there are hundreds of Native cultures, with many many diverse religious beliefs. No tribe can speak for any other, hell, I don't know of any tribes so coherent that any single group could speak for the tribe.The story you told sounds false to me. In all liklihood you were misled. If they didn't tell you when and where this happened, it is because that disallows any confirmation. Think about it, whenever you hear an amazing story that happened somewhere at sometime to some people you might want to question authenticity. An amazing event like the appearance of actual angels might be something worth noting (even in disbelief) by someone. Someone other than a travelling group of evangelicals.Now onto reparations. This is not RR's stuff, but directed at some others. No Native Americans in this country seriously want or expect reparation. You could not afford it as a nation. The most radical groups (like AIM) aren't asking for repartions, just that the government give what was most recently promised, stop taking more, and to stop standing in our way. It is really simple and when ignored is fuel to the fire. Naming tribes who are rich does not address this problem. The richest tribes in America have the poorest tribal members. There is no trickle down. The entire BIA system is corrupt at its heart and this directly affects tribal members.

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Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

Definitely, if only to make up for the shit we take for our hair colour But otherwise, totally agree. How far back do we take this? Should one Indian tribe be paying reparation for the grief they dealt out to a neighbouring tribe?Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Leave it to the gospel of jar to say something like that.
I actually slapped my forehead when I read this.
*sigh* Then try to get taught by a true Native American about their religion. You will quickly find out that it is not just a religion, it is a culture, and you have to become part of it to learn about it.I am no expert on Native Americans, or am I an advocate for them, this is what I have learned from my friends, and from doing a small amount of research on the internet about it.Native American Spirituality

quote:

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"The culture, values and traditions of native people amount to more than crafts and carvings. Their respect for the wisdom of their elders, their concept of family responsibilities extending beyond the nuclear family to embrace a whole village, their respect for the environment, their willingness to share - all of these values persist within their own culture even though they have been under unremitting pressure to abandon them." Mr. Justice Thomas Berger, Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Inquiry, (aka the Berger Inquiry).

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We are talking about the current one, and what they have managed to scrap up from the past.
From the story, I gather that the Indians in Arizona, and the ones in New Hampshire seem to have the same values, in that you should ask for permission to enter the land. That is how it started.
Then the Natives were learning about Christ through Streams Ministries, when someone ignorantly asked for forgiveness for what our forefathers did. That opened up the can of worms. Listen, I've never seen an angel, or any vision outside my own head. But I sure hope I to one day. I used to ridicule people who did. I even ditched a girl in my younger days when she told me she saw an angel, because I thought she was nuts. But as I grow older, and learn that I do not know everything, and that just about anything is possible, I've decided not to ridicule people who say this.But in all this, I can see no motive in all this if it is a lie. I personally know the person who is heading this up, and he is a great person. His visions and dreams may be a little out there for the average person, but that doesn't make him a bad guy, or a liar.Whatever it was that happened that day, must have been very significant to initiate the cermonies that lasted for over a week, where all this forgiveness was passed back and forth. Like I said, I personally know this guy, I don't need to question him about it. I trust him. We were shown a power point presentation explaining everything. It contained many pictures of the ceremonies.I have offered myself to be used as a tool in asking for forgiveness of our own local Indians here. I have a friend who is Native American, and he belongs to a tribe. So I have a contact to the local Indians.
But there is much to learn about the process, and my church would have to consider it before I could move forward with it. Once you open that door, there is no closing it. If God wants it to happen, it will.

This story only deals with two of them. I am aware that there are many tribes. This is a localized event, that happened in Arizona, and New Hampshire. Well it's not false, and they did tell us when and where, I just don't remember, as there was way to much information given out. It was also the first time it has ever been revealed in a church. The person leading this was from my church. He has been there for over 25 years, and was an Elder, and a Pastor there. So the church trusts him. He was also a tutor to me for a short period of time before he left, in trainging me to become a worship leader at my church.He felt that our church was liberal enough, and accepting enough to accept a message such as this. This is by no means an easy message to deliver.A power point presentation was shown with all the images from the ceremonies. See my last post about the angels. This is true.Are you Native American?