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Author Topic:   boasts of Athiests II
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 300 (332300)
07-16-2006 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by jar
07-16-2006 6:50 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
Now, was that experience of more or less value because it was subjective?
It was of value to YOU. That's subjective.
Whether it had objective value or not is another matter. In order for it have objective value, it would have to be valuable generally, not just to you.
We don't know for certain whether your experience has objective value or not. But if one is an atheist, one would have to say, to be logically consistent, that any "value" is purely subjective and thus ultimately arbitrary.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 6:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 7:01 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 227 of 300 (332304)
07-16-2006 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by robinrohan
07-16-2006 6:56 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
It was of value to YOU. That's subjective.
Whether it had objective value or not is another matter. In order to for it have objective value, it would have to be valuable generally, not just to you.
We don't know for certain whether your experience has objective value or not. But if one is an atheist, one would have to say, to be logically consistent, that any "value" is purely subjective and thus ultimately arbitrary.
Another non-statement.
So what?
What does ANYTHING in that post have to do with the question I asked?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 6:56 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 7:11 PM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 300 (332308)
07-16-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by jar
07-16-2006 7:01 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
What does ANYTHING in that post have to do with the question I asked?
It has everything to do with it, but you apparently do not understand this because you are not sufficiently appreciative of the difference between that which is subjective and that which is objective. The distinction is crucial when trying to figure out what's true.
I understand your experience had value to YOU.
But the question is, whether it was something that was to be valued by everyone, in the same way that 2+2=4 is true for everyone, anywhere, any time.
For all I know, there might be such a thing as objective values. But I see no evidence of it. So I conclude that all values are subjective. That means they are ultimately arbitrary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 7:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 7:16 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 229 of 300 (332310)
07-16-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by robinrohan
07-16-2006 7:11 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
Still not one single reply to my question.
Does an objective value have greater value than a subjective value?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 7:11 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 7:26 PM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 300 (332314)
07-16-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by jar
07-16-2006 7:16 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
Does an objective value have greater value than a subjective value?
Yes. Infinitely.
There's no comparison.
Suppose I prefer the color red to the color blue. And suppose I do so because I associate red with a favorite color of a long lost girlfriend, whom I still love. So when I see the color red, I am enthralled.
Now if I make a generalization, and say, "Red is a superior color to blue," my judgement is purely subjective. It has no truth-value at all in that it has no logical basis. It's purely a subjective matter.
Of course, there is always the possibility that red really is superior to blue. But that would be a coincidence if it were true.
So you can see that my argument that red is superior to blue has no merit. In the same way, your argument that your experience has value has no merit.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 7:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 7:30 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 231 of 300 (332318)
07-16-2006 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by robinrohan
07-16-2006 7:26 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
Beg your pardon?
If you prefer red to blue then red has a higher value than blue, for you. What possible difference does it make if I happen to prefer blue? Does that make yours less valuable?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 7:26 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 07-16-2006 7:42 PM jar has not replied
 Message 233 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 7:43 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 232 of 300 (332325)
07-16-2006 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by jar
07-16-2006 7:30 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
Beg your pardon?
If you prefer red to blue then red has a higher value than blue, for you. What possible difference does it make if I happen to prefer blue? Does that make yours less valuable?
Make up your mind, jar. First you dismissed all Robin's answers about your subjective valuing of your own experience, when he said clearly that it has value for YOU. You dismissed that, saying he wasn't answering what you were really asking, which was whether objective value had more value than subjective value.
Now he answers that, saying that objective values are of infinitely more value than subjective ones (if such existed), but now you complain that he's not acknowledging the higher value to oneself of one's own subjective values, which he's already addressed. Are you intentionally talking in circles?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 7:30 PM jar has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 300 (332326)
07-16-2006 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by jar
07-16-2006 7:30 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
If you prefer red to blue then red has a higher value than blue, for you. What possible difference does it make if I happen to prefer blue? Does that make yours less valuable?
It may make no difference to me, but it makes a huge difference in regard to the value of the color. Just because it's valuable to me doesn't mean it's valuable. I might as well have picked another color. My judgment of it is meaningless.
This is true of life in general. It really doesn't matter what we do or don't do, what we prefer or don't prefer--objectively. This would be our conclusion, if we wish to be consistent, if we are atheists.
Some atheists want to have it both ways. They want to say that we are derivations of a mindless process, and yet somehow or other there are objective values. They want to say that our morals are subjective, and yet they are very vociferous with their politically correct moral dictums. Why is this? You would think they would tone down the moralism. After all, it's all subjective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 7:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 8:03 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 234 of 300 (332331)
07-16-2006 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by robinrohan
07-16-2006 7:43 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
Some atheists want to have it both ways. They want to say that we are derivations of a mindless process, and yet somehow or other there are objective values.
Excuse me Robin. Where are the objective assertions you claim have been made.?
The question was are objective values worth more than subjective values? You have said yes but still have not shown a single example of objective values. Don't trot out math again because your comparision was absurd. If you want to use math then you must ask is 2+2=4 is of greater value than 2+3=5.
They want to say that our morals are subjective, and yet they are very vociferous with their politically correct moral dictums. Why is this? You would think they would tone down the moralism. After all, it's all subjective.
What moral dictums? Not one person has brought anything like that forward. And as to political correctness, the only place it has been mentioned has been in you and Faith making unsupported assertions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 7:43 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 8:09 PM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 300 (332333)
07-16-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by jar
07-16-2006 8:03 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
The question was are objective values worth more than subjective values? You have said yes but still have not shown a single example of objective values
As far as I know, there are no objective values. So I had to make an analogy with math.
You judged your experience to be valuable. That was subjective. I was explaining to you that it was meaningless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 8:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 8:17 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 236 of 300 (332334)
07-16-2006 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by robinrohan
07-16-2006 8:09 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
You judged your experience to be valuable. That was subjective. I was explaining to you that it was meaningless.
Ah, so experience was meaningless. Gottcha now. LOL.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 8:09 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 8:22 PM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 300 (332335)
07-16-2006 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by jar
07-16-2006 8:17 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
Ah, so experience was meaningless
I meant your judgment of it as valuable was meaningless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 8:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 8:26 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 238 of 300 (332336)
07-16-2006 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by robinrohan
07-16-2006 8:22 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
I meant your judgment of it as valuable was meaningless.
Ah, so my judgement of it was valueless. Gottcha.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 8:22 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 8:32 PM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 300 (332339)
07-16-2006 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by jar
07-16-2006 8:26 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
Ah, so my judgement of it was valueless
Your judgment was meaningless in the same way that, in my hypothetical example, my judgment that red was superior to blue was meaningless.
It had meaning for me, but it did not have meaning objectively.
Now, in the pursuit of truth, what matters is objectivity, not subjectivity. I can subjectively value anything I like, but it means nothing. It might make me happy, of course, but that has nothing to do with truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 8:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 07-16-2006 8:42 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 240 of 300 (332341)
07-16-2006 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by robinrohan
07-16-2006 8:32 PM


Re: subjective vs. objective or inherent value
Now, in the pursuit of truth, what matters is objectivity, not subjectivity. I can subjectively value anything I like, but it means nothing. It might make me happy, of course, but that has nothing to do with truth.
So something that brings you pleasure is not True? Yeah, right.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 8:32 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by robinrohan, posted 07-16-2006 8:51 PM jar has replied

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