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Author | Topic: boasts of Athiests II | |||||||||||||||||||||||
robinrohan Inactive Member |
Now, was that experience of more or less value because it was subjective? It was of value to YOU. That's subjective. Whether it had objective value or not is another matter. In order for it have objective value, it would have to be valuable generally, not just to you. We don't know for certain whether your experience has objective value or not. But if one is an atheist, one would have to say, to be logically consistent, that any "value" is purely subjective and thus ultimately arbitrary. Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It was of value to YOU. That's subjective. Whether it had objective value or not is another matter. In order to for it have objective value, it would have to be valuable generally, not just to you. We don't know for certain whether your experience has objective value or not. But if one is an atheist, one would have to say, to be logically consistent, that any "value" is purely subjective and thus ultimately arbitrary. Another non-statement. So what? What does ANYTHING in that post have to do with the question I asked? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
What does ANYTHING in that post have to do with the question I asked? It has everything to do with it, but you apparently do not understand this because you are not sufficiently appreciative of the difference between that which is subjective and that which is objective. The distinction is crucial when trying to figure out what's true. I understand your experience had value to YOU. But the question is, whether it was something that was to be valued by everyone, in the same way that 2+2=4 is true for everyone, anywhere, any time. For all I know, there might be such a thing as objective values. But I see no evidence of it. So I conclude that all values are subjective. That means they are ultimately arbitrary.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Still not one single reply to my question.
Does an objective value have greater value than a subjective value? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Does an objective value have greater value than a subjective value? Yes. Infinitely. There's no comparison. Suppose I prefer the color red to the color blue. And suppose I do so because I associate red with a favorite color of a long lost girlfriend, whom I still love. So when I see the color red, I am enthralled. Now if I make a generalization, and say, "Red is a superior color to blue," my judgement is purely subjective. It has no truth-value at all in that it has no logical basis. It's purely a subjective matter. Of course, there is always the possibility that red really is superior to blue. But that would be a coincidence if it were true. So you can see that my argument that red is superior to blue has no merit. In the same way, your argument that your experience has value has no merit. Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Beg your pardon?
If you prefer red to blue then red has a higher value than blue, for you. What possible difference does it make if I happen to prefer blue? Does that make yours less valuable? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Beg your pardon? If you prefer red to blue then red has a higher value than blue, for you. What possible difference does it make if I happen to prefer blue? Does that make yours less valuable? Make up your mind, jar. First you dismissed all Robin's answers about your subjective valuing of your own experience, when he said clearly that it has value for YOU. You dismissed that, saying he wasn't answering what you were really asking, which was whether objective value had more value than subjective value. Now he answers that, saying that objective values are of infinitely more value than subjective ones (if such existed), but now you complain that he's not acknowledging the higher value to oneself of one's own subjective values, which he's already addressed. Are you intentionally talking in circles? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
If you prefer red to blue then red has a higher value than blue, for you. What possible difference does it make if I happen to prefer blue? Does that make yours less valuable? It may make no difference to me, but it makes a huge difference in regard to the value of the color. Just because it's valuable to me doesn't mean it's valuable. I might as well have picked another color. My judgment of it is meaningless. This is true of life in general. It really doesn't matter what we do or don't do, what we prefer or don't prefer--objectively. This would be our conclusion, if we wish to be consistent, if we are atheists. Some atheists want to have it both ways. They want to say that we are derivations of a mindless process, and yet somehow or other there are objective values. They want to say that our morals are subjective, and yet they are very vociferous with their politically correct moral dictums. Why is this? You would think they would tone down the moralism. After all, it's all subjective.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Some atheists want to have it both ways. They want to say that we are derivations of a mindless process, and yet somehow or other there are objective values. Excuse me Robin. Where are the objective assertions you claim have been made.? The question was are objective values worth more than subjective values? You have said yes but still have not shown a single example of objective values. Don't trot out math again because your comparision was absurd. If you want to use math then you must ask is 2+2=4 is of greater value than 2+3=5.
They want to say that our morals are subjective, and yet they are very vociferous with their politically correct moral dictums. Why is this? You would think they would tone down the moralism. After all, it's all subjective. What moral dictums? Not one person has brought anything like that forward. And as to political correctness, the only place it has been mentioned has been in you and Faith making unsupported assertions. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
The question was are objective values worth more than subjective values? You have said yes but still have not shown a single example of objective values As far as I know, there are no objective values. So I had to make an analogy with math. You judged your experience to be valuable. That was subjective. I was explaining to you that it was meaningless.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You judged your experience to be valuable. That was subjective. I was explaining to you that it was meaningless. Ah, so experience was meaningless. Gottcha now. LOL. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Ah, so experience was meaningless I meant your judgment of it as valuable was meaningless.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I meant your judgment of it as valuable was meaningless. Ah, so my judgement of it was valueless. Gottcha. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Ah, so my judgement of it was valueless Your judgment was meaningless in the same way that, in my hypothetical example, my judgment that red was superior to blue was meaningless. It had meaning for me, but it did not have meaning objectively. Now, in the pursuit of truth, what matters is objectivity, not subjectivity. I can subjectively value anything I like, but it means nothing. It might make me happy, of course, but that has nothing to do with truth.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Now, in the pursuit of truth, what matters is objectivity, not subjectivity. I can subjectively value anything I like, but it means nothing. It might make me happy, of course, but that has nothing to do with truth. So something that brings you pleasure is not True? Yeah, right. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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