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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 299 of 519 (472734)
06-24-2008 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by New Cat's Eye
06-11-2008 11:21 AM


What about gay marriage
Hi Catholic Scientist & the rest,
Catholic, I hope you'll pardon me if I used your thread to join the discussion? I hope to contribute my dime's worth of thinking on the subject.
quote:
The issue worth discussing is not whether or not gayness makes you feel icky.
Its about whether or not gays should be allowed to have marriages from a legal perspective
IMHO, not everything legal is valid. For example, if all lawmakers and the president would pass a law prohibiting huricanes, that law would be legal but not valid. Simply because it violates natural law.
The same thing with same sex marriage. That law although legal is invalid. It contradicts the law of nature. Phsiologically, the sex organs of male and female were made for each other. Too, these are designed for procreation.
just my thought,
Pat

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by bluescat48, posted 06-24-2008 3:22 PM NOT JULIUS has replied
 Message 301 by DrJones*, posted 06-24-2008 3:38 PM NOT JULIUS has replied
 Message 341 by Rrhain, posted 06-26-2008 5:23 AM NOT JULIUS has not replied

NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 302 of 519 (472749)
06-24-2008 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by bluescat48
06-24-2008 3:22 PM


Re: What about gay marriage
Thanks, blues.
quote:
show me how they were designed
Man pokes his stick to a hole that should produce babies. No two sticks can produce babies, neither can two holes produce babies. Simple.
quote:
how does it contradict a law of nature, when there are very few if any scientific theories that can be construed as 100% fact
I think that a male penis entering a female vagina and producing babies is not a scientific theory but a fact. Or, did I miss your point?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 303 of 519 (472754)
06-24-2008 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by DrJones*
06-24-2008 3:38 PM


Re: What about gay marriage
Hi Dr J,
quote:
so laws against nudity are also illegal?
No, they are perfectly legal. Protects the nudist from bugs. Too, its safety issue, I guess. Imagine what traffic would be if you allow nudists to roam free on a busy street?
Pat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by DrJones*, posted 06-24-2008 3:38 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by DrJones*, posted 06-24-2008 3:48 PM NOT JULIUS has replied
 Message 306 by lyx2no, posted 06-24-2008 4:06 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 307 of 519 (472761)
06-24-2008 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by DrJones*
06-24-2008 3:48 PM


Re: What about gay marriage
Dr J,
quote:
But clothing is not natural, we're not born with clothes
Clothing is natural. We seek protection from bugs, from the elements. On the other hand, poking a stick with a stick is not natural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by DrJones*, posted 06-24-2008 3:48 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 308 of 519 (472762)
06-24-2008 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by rueh
06-24-2008 3:50 PM


Re: What about gay marriage
Hi Ru, [quote]Is reproduction the sole reason for marriage though?[quote] No, but it is (or should be) the main reason for marriage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by rueh, posted 06-24-2008 3:50 PM rueh has not replied

NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 310 of 519 (472765)
06-24-2008 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by rueh
06-24-2008 3:50 PM


Re: What about gay marriage
Hi Ru,
quote:
Is reproduction the sole reason for marriage though?
No but it is (or should be) the main reason for marriage, I think. But even if some would not agree that procreation is not the main reason for marriage, Just take a look at the physiological make up of the sex organs. Penis is to vagina by nature. Penis to penis / vagina to vagina is just not natural.
Pat

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Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Straggler, posted 06-24-2008 4:51 PM NOT JULIUS has replied
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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 311 of 519 (472766)
06-24-2008 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by rueh
06-24-2008 3:50 PM


Re: What about gay marriage
sorry double post
Edited by Great J, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by rueh, posted 06-24-2008 3:50 PM rueh has not replied

NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 312 of 519 (472772)
06-24-2008 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by lyx2no
06-24-2008 4:06 PM


Re: Civil Marriage is About Property
Hello L,
quote:
The laws of nature said you should have been eaten by a zebra or died of rickets when you were ten. But as Americans, we have no obligation to comply with anyones ideas of the laws of nature.
I don't get the joke about me or you eaten by zebra when we were ten. I'm sorry, I'm not american. But, americans are also subject to natural laws, eh? The point is: human laws are invalid if they go against natural law.
quote:
Civil marriage laws are about property, not reproduction.
I respectfully disagree. I think there were cases of marriage annullments (divorce) that were granted because the female vagina is too small or that it caused discomforts to the couples.
If you are concerned about property rights of gays, then amending marriage laws is not the answer. Try, strengthening partnership laws, for example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by lyx2no, posted 06-24-2008 4:06 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by lyx2no, posted 06-24-2008 6:10 PM NOT JULIUS has replied
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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 314 of 519 (472778)
06-24-2008 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Straggler
06-24-2008 4:51 PM


Re: What about gay marriage
Hello S,
quote:
Why does natural = should? Isn't this just the naturalistic fallacy?
Needs clarification. Men enter into marriage for the main reason--and there are other reasons--of reproducing.It is their natural urge to reproduce--that's why they have the so called "father / mother instinct". The need to have, care, and love children that came from their own bodies.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Straggler, posted 06-24-2008 5:55 PM NOT JULIUS has replied
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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 359 of 519 (473016)
06-26-2008 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Straggler
06-24-2008 5:55 PM


Re: What about gay marriage
Hi S,
quote:
Is rape natural? Is rape good? Is everything natural good? Is everything 'unnatural' bad?
Please note I am not saying that homosexuality is either good or bad or natural or not. I am simply saying that your argument based on natural is irrelevant.
I think you miss the point. Man made laws should not go against natural laws. It is NOT about natural things in general vs. unnatural things. Its about laws. Natural law says that no man should do violence (e.g rape) to his fellow or he/she'll suffer consequence. So, the law penalizing rape is perfectly in harmony with natural law. Natural laws says that males are made for females--their genitals, their temperament, their aspirations (e.g their need to procreate with the opposite sex whom they love) are complementary to each other. So, human laws limiting marriage to a man and woman is in harmony with natural law. Coversely, same sex marriage is against natural law.
Edited by Great J, : No reason given.

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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 361 of 519 (473021)
06-26-2008 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by lyx2no
06-24-2008 6:10 PM


Re: Civil Marriage is About Property
quote:
What you got here is called a silly idea ” If man were meant to fly God would have given him wings. Men have no regard for imaginary laws of nature. Gravity, thermodynamics, something else that doesn't come to mind right now . fine. Laws of Nature restricting us to act as expected by people who imagine that they know what's good for us . nope. Enjoy your laws of nature but I'm flying.
:=)Your argument is one based on absurdity. Is being discourteous not against natural law? What about cannibalism--is this not also against natural law? I think human behavior--e.g discourtesy, cannibalism, rape, etc--are also subject to natural laws and human laws. The point that I've been stressing is that human laws should not violate natural law. If a human law is passed legalizing cannibalism then that is repugnant to natural law or even plain common sense.
Again, natural law says that males are made for females. Their genitals, aspirations (e.g. the urge to have babies with the opposite sex they love) are complementary to each other,i.e. in harmony with natural law. So, human laws that restrict marriages to man and woman is perfectly in harmony with natural law. Conversely, same sex marriages is repugnant to natural law. It's that simple.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 363 of 519 (473026)
06-26-2008 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Rrhain
06-26-2008 5:39 AM


Hello Rr,
You :
quote:
That must be why we require a fertility test before allowing people to get married and immediately annul it if there haven't been any children after five years.
In other jurisdictions, yes they allow marriage annullment based on incapcity to reproduce. And, the reason is to allow the fertile one to have progeny. And, that is perfectly in harmony with natural law. Wise and cautious couples also undergo "RH factor" test ( not sure of exact term)to determine if they'll bear healthy children. If not, they don't push through with the marriage. And, that is perfectly in harmony with natural law.
quote:
That must be why we never allow people to adopt children...what happened to your argument?
Natural law also favors showing love and care for children of others. So, human adoption laws that encourage love and care for children of others are in harmony with natural law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Rrhain, posted 06-26-2008 5:39 AM Rrhain has replied

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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 364 of 519 (473028)
06-26-2008 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Taz
06-26-2008 3:13 PM


Re: Civil Marriage is About Property
T,
quote:
Since "natural law" obviously is against people in space, are you against the space program
The urge to explore and exploit space for economic reason is not against natural law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Taz, posted 06-26-2008 3:13 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by rueh, posted 06-26-2008 3:37 PM NOT JULIUS has replied
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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 367 of 519 (473044)
06-26-2008 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by rueh
06-26-2008 3:37 PM


Re: Civil Marriage is About Property
R:
quote:
What is it exactly that you mean by "natural law".
Natural laws as applied to human behaviour. Although humans have practiced cannibalism, it was not natural. They went against the natural law humans urge to live in harmony.
Here is a good definition of natural law: "A law or body of laws that derives from nature and is believed to be binding upon human actions apart from or in conjunction with laws established by human authority."
Key words: law(s) derive from nature...binding upon human actions apart from or in conjunction with laws established by human authority.
Prominent jurists have held that: human laws should not go against laws of nature.
Edited by Great J, : No reason given.

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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 4474 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 368 of 519 (473047)
06-26-2008 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Taz
06-26-2008 3:44 PM


Re: Civil Marriage is About Property
Taz writes:
quote:
You've overriden the physical limitations of the "natural law" of space dwelling with a purely human desire. Based on this logic, one could also argue that the urge to seek out a life-long companionship with someone you are physically attracted to is not against natural law.
Human desires--such as exploration and exploitation--if not harmful are not against natural law. The desire to eat if carried out by eating healthy foods is not against natural law. But, if you eat unhealthy foods you eventually get sick and that is against natural law. Again, government laws prohibiting junk food in schools are perfectly in line with natural law.
To seek a lifelong companionship with someone you are physically attracted--that mating desire--is not against natural law. What is repugnant to natural law is that if that mating desire is directed towards the same sex. As discussed earlier, the anatomy of the male and female bodies, their aspirations are complementary. On the other hand, male to male or female to female relationships goes against their very anatomy.

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