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Author Topic:   The impossibility of infinite ability..aka "god"
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 31 of 94 (450096)
01-20-2008 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by cavediver
01-20-2008 3:15 PM


Re: The only thing worse than theistic bullshit...
...oh man, go post that in the bicamerality thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by cavediver, posted 01-20-2008 3:15 PM cavediver has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 94 (450097)
01-20-2008 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by TheNaturalist
01-20-2008 3:06 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
Thenaturalist writes:
So, are we parts of god, like New York and Los Angeles are parts of the U.S.?
Some people believe we are, but that's irrelevant to the analogy. The point is that God doen't have to move if He's already everywhere. You haven't dealt with that at all.
Once again, the concept of movement is nonsensical when we're talking about a God who is EVERYWHERE There's no "place" for Him to move "to" or "from". He's already there.
You're just making your own little straw version of a god that has to move from place to place. Congratulations on knocking the stuffing out of it.
But you haven't dealt at all with the concept of God that people actually have.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-20-2008 3:06 PM TheNaturalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-20-2008 10:08 PM ringo has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 33 of 94 (450102)
01-20-2008 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by TheNaturalist
01-20-2008 2:45 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
ok. i understand now i think. you don't believe in God.
time doesn't prove God is not, yet you want to tell people who do believe in God that their belief in his abilities is silly because time exists, which means that your trying to say because of time, there is no God?
ok..i confused myself.
I'm not sure your motive, but as already pointed out, God is defined by most as being everywhere.
i think this might help you understand the view, i call it, the publican and the scientist:
the publican and the scientist:
setting: a small hill outside a bustling city. two men are seated near a small tree, one is a publican, the other is a scientist.
publican: i wish it were possible to see God.
scientist: i see God all the time.
publican: what!? how can you say such a thing?
scientist: energy cannot be created or destroyed. that means all that i see has come from the very body of God.
publican: with all the filth, and sin and evils in the world, do you really think that God would want that as a part of his body?
scientist: i do not claim to know why God does what he does, i am simply making an observation.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-20-2008 2:45 PM TheNaturalist has not replied

  
TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5683 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 34 of 94 (450128)
01-20-2008 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
01-20-2008 3:24 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
Some people believe we are, but that's irrelevant to the analogy. The point is that God doen't have to move if He's already everywhere. You haven't dealt with that at all.
Once again, the concept of movement is nonsensical when we're talking about a God who is EVERYWHERE There's no "place" for Him to move "to" or "from". He's already there.
You're just making your own little straw version of a god that has to move from place to place. Congratulations on knocking the stuffing out of it.
But you haven't dealt at all with the concept of God that people actually have.
Even if god is everywhere, he would still have to move to cause something to happen. If the universe were the size of my body, and I was everywhere in the universe at the same time or whatever, if I couldnt move, I couldnt do anything. Id just be there, not a causer of anything without action.
And secondly, how the hell does god be everywhere and not be noticed?
Doesnt make sense to me. Give a reasonable schematic of the mechanism god uses to avoid being displaced by matter, or displace other matter. Unless you can do that, ALL youre saying is, "I know something exists. Its everywhere. It can do anything." I ask, "what is it? How does it do it?" You dont answer. I dont believe you. And thats how it goes down

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 01-20-2008 3:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 01-20-2008 10:34 PM TheNaturalist has not replied
 Message 36 by ICANT, posted 01-20-2008 11:10 PM TheNaturalist has not replied
 Message 37 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 10:20 AM TheNaturalist has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 35 of 94 (450133)
01-20-2008 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by TheNaturalist
01-20-2008 10:08 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
TheNaturalist writes:
Even if god is everywhere, he would still have to move to cause something to happen.
Non sequitur. "Movement" has no meaning.
And secondly, how the hell does god be everywhere and not be noticed?
That's not the topic. If you're trying to show that the God people believe in can't have infinite ability, you have to accept the properties of the God people believe in.
Doesnt make sense to me.
Doesn't matter a bit what makes sense to you. Your job here is to convince us.
Give a reasonable schematic of the mechanism god uses to avoid being displaced by matter, or displace other matter.
Now you're moving the goalposts.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-20-2008 10:08 PM TheNaturalist has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 36 of 94 (450141)
01-20-2008 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by TheNaturalist
01-20-2008 10:08 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
Hi Naturalist,
TheNaturalist writes:
Even if god is everywhere, he would still have to move to cause something to happen.
Why?
If:
Colo 1:17 (KJS) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-20-2008 10:08 PM TheNaturalist has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 94 (450209)
01-21-2008 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by TheNaturalist
01-20-2008 10:08 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
If GOD created the Universe through an act of will alone, why would GOD have to move to accomplish something?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-20-2008 10:08 PM TheNaturalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 12:33 PM jar has replied

  
Am5n 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5901 days)
Posts: 106
From: New York City, New York, United States
Joined: 02-21-2007


Message 38 of 94 (450221)
01-21-2008 11:02 AM


TN writes:
Even if god is everywhere, he would still have to move to cause something to happen.
Thats only your opinion. Shouldn't you be trying to convince us why God doesn't have the ability to do shit? better yet why don't you explain to us what you believe in.
ps: oh I'm sorry, it's been already noted that "you believe in Naturalism".
ICANT writes:
Colo 1:17 (KJS) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Nice choice of verse brother ICANT.
Ringo writes:
Doesn't matter a bit what makes sense to you. Your job here is to convince us.
He doesn't seem to be doing too good of a job.
jar writes:
If GOD created the Universe through an act of will alone, why would GOD have to move to accomplish something?
better yet TN, why would God have to move to accomplish anything?
tesla writes:
scientist:I do not claim to know why God does what he does, i am simply making an observation.
I stand by this too. I do not claim to know why God does what he does, but I can only hope it is for the best.
TN writes:
Apparently, god cant do shit. Hes worthless
[sarcasm]Well thats a good argument.[/sarcasm]
as you can see a lot of the replies given to this thread, show that, God is considered to be capitalized[person,place,and thing(aka: mostly everything)]. God is my Homie G, I worship God fool. I be representing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Da King of Kings & Lord of Lords. pce out sucka!
sincerely yours, Amen.
Edited by Amen., : No reason given.

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 39 of 94 (450231)
01-21-2008 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by cavediver
01-20-2008 3:15 PM


Re: The only thing worse than theistic bullshit...
Precisely why I didn't promote this topic when it was presented. Whatever version of god(s) TheNat is arguing against, it appears not to represent any conception that any of our various theists here support. In other words, the answer to the proposed OP was so incredibly simple there wasn't anything to discuss. To wit, God is outside of the universe (for how could S/He/It have created something if it was inside that thing), therefore is not bound by mere physical laws like time/distance mathematics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by cavediver, posted 01-20-2008 3:15 PM cavediver has not replied

  
TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5683 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 40 of 94 (450257)
01-21-2008 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
01-21-2008 10:20 AM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
If GOD created the Universe through an act of will alone, why would GOD have to move to accomplish something?
hmmm..thats the thing: it DIDNT create the universe out of will alone
and secondly, you have yet to give an arguement that god even did anything in the FIRST place other than just saying he did...over and over and over again
or even any evidence for it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 10:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:37 PM TheNaturalist has replied
 Message 42 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 12:42 PM TheNaturalist has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 94 (450259)
01-21-2008 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by TheNaturalist
01-21-2008 12:33 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
and secondly, you have yet to give an arguement that god even did anything in the FIRST place other than just saying he did...over and over and over again
But of course. I freely admit that I believe in GOD and that GOD did create all that is, seen and unseen. I never try to offer proof because it is impossible to test supernatural using science.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 12:33 PM TheNaturalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 12:47 PM jar has replied

  
TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5683 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 42 of 94 (450262)
01-21-2008 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by TheNaturalist
01-21-2008 12:33 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
You guys have to be, well lets face it, smart enough to realize that:
if you 1.dont have a reasonable and detailed and observable schematic of how "god" works or exists like how a reasonable and detailed and observable schematic of how the Citric acid cycle works in human metabolism or a reasonable and detailed and observable schematic of how evolutionary transition works, and 2.dont show any examples of god being observed by the scientific community or other reasonable source(not a layperson, or even a group of laypeople) then all youre saying is:
"hey, I know something exists". I ask, "yeah...and? point?" you say, "well it can do anything." I ask, "anything as in what?" you say, "ANYTHING. Its capable of anything." I ask, "uhhhh...well thats..interesting. What is it? How does it work?" you say, "well it doesnt work with time or mathematics" I start wondering if Im talking to a dumbass
and thats the end of the story

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 12:33 PM TheNaturalist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ringo, posted 01-21-2008 1:09 PM TheNaturalist has replied

  
TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5683 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 43 of 94 (450265)
01-21-2008 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
01-21-2008 12:37 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
But of course. I freely admit that I believe in GOD and that GOD did create all that is, seen and unseen. I never try to offer proof because it is impossible to test supernatural using science.
then you have no arguement whatsoever
I feel like people are saying to me, "there are blue cat/dolphin creatures living on the third moon of xantar 284 in Andromeda"....
how am I supposed to believe you? you saying that god exists is (well less, but just for the sake of convincing you Ill say no more) plausible than that above, since you claim not to be able to observe it in any way

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 1:00 PM TheNaturalist has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 94 (450270)
01-21-2008 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by TheNaturalist
01-21-2008 12:47 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
how am I supposed to believe you? you saying that god exists is (well less, but just for the sake of convincing you Ill say no more) plausible than that above, since you claim not to be able to observe it in any way
Why would I care whether or not you believed me? I did not say that I could not observer GOD, I said that the supernatural by definition is outside the realm of Science. GOD cannot be tested scientifically.
There is no problem with someone not believing in GOD, in fact I would say that that is the reasonable and logical position. I don't expect you to accept my word and honestly would be disappointed in your abilities if you did.
BUT, that has nothing to do with whether or not GOD actually exists.
If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence She does not exist.
If GOD does not exist, It does not exist regardless of any evidence It does exist.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 12:47 PM TheNaturalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by TheNaturalist, posted 01-21-2008 1:08 PM jar has replied

  
TheNaturalist
Member (Idle past 5683 days)
Posts: 86
Joined: 01-18-2008


Message 45 of 94 (450272)
01-21-2008 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
01-21-2008 1:00 PM


Re: Limiting God to materialism
Why would I care whether or not you believed me? I did not say that I could not observer GOD, I said that the supernatural by definition is outside the realm of Science. GOD cannot be tested scientifically.
Have you ever "observed" god?
And moreover, why do you think god exists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 1:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 1:20 PM TheNaturalist has replied

  
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