My position explained

I don't know this, what happened? I agree, though there was a huge debate here at evc on what is an agnostic and what is an atheist, and I ended up being pushed into agreeing that agnostics are actually a subclass of atheists. Thus I now call myself an atheist-agnostic, where I used to call myself an agnostic.There are definitely some atheists that are as rabid as theist fundies, though they are much fewer and thankfully don't have as many morals to impart to others. I still don't think Dawkins is one of those, though a bitter angry man (towards theists) he certainly seems at times.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

There's a lot of requests, so I'll make one post.Rrhain, I said, "I am certainly against the traditional bleak and purposeless picture - evolutionistic, atheistic, nihilistics paint"That means that in order to take offense, you must qualify as one who believes in a purposeless and bleak picture. Now even Sherlock admitted that an atheistic position is more logical etc...and that Dawkins is right according to him. But basically - if no God created the universe, and evolution is without purpose then.....hmmmmm, I'm confident you can figure the rest out. Certainly for eternal life - you'd have to look to cryogenics.. Now - call me silly but that's bleak and purpose as I meant it is not there....etc....see where I'm going yet?So please don't make out I personally attacked anyone. You then babble; I'm not, didn't you read where I admitt the possibilities of evolution? Yet certainly there is not enough evidence for abiogenesis - and macro evolution might aswell be a pink unicorn, but I've certainly never got one when breeding horsies. Syamsu, I certainly agree. The mindless constraints of evolution make its adherents come up with some strange jive concerning it's abilities. "Evolution made it so that..etc..etc.."..Hmmmm, I doubt it's a mind that it can do much.

Yes, I can figure it out. You are insulting the belief system that people such as myself hold.If I said for people that believe in a God, for which there is absolutely no evidence, they clearly then do not believe in reality and so must be deranged and have a bleak purposeless life because they cannot find a reason to exist outside of bizarre fantasy worlds... that would be insulting right? Your desire to equate permanence with meaning or purpose has been argued and shot down before. Or was it just that the person ran away who was arguing your position? Hmmmmm. Yes, I see you rationalizing your viewpoint without understanding what people around you are saying. Although there may be no permanent and external purpose for a life, that does not mean that a life has no meaning or purpose. It would hardly have to be bleak.Its not exactly like Ecclesiastes makes life sound grand does it now? What purpose did you find in it? Nice bit of inconsistency there. Oh yeah, and you did attack someone. You personally attacked Dawkins, and above you admitted that it would extend to me as well. Holy Cow, you are back to crying "macroevolution"? If you actually understood EVOLUTIONARY THEORY you might be able to understand why you never saw the horses you breed become a species other than a horse.And as for there not being "enough evidence" for abiogenesis... Enough for what? To be the most credible scientific theory we have right now? Yes. What else do we need than that?Oh yes, but since you appear to be saying you have mountains of evidence for this God of yours? For the mechanisms he employed for genesis of life? For the purpose he has stacked your life with?I always find it ironic when fundies drink from the fountain of logic and gain skepticism long enough to doubt science, but then wipe their hands of the whole thing when it comes time to look at their own "theory". Give me a specific quote. And if you can, give me a quote from ME saying something like the above.Name calling and more name calling. This is why the "new old Mike" sucks. You have given up all your good habits to revert to ad hominem.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Homes you are deriving much from my post to Rrhain and seem to think a rare passage in Ecclesiastes outdoes the main message of Christ. Does abiogenesis and evolution and atheism paint a meaningful picture concerning the purpose of an individual circling a small apparently unimpressive sun? Could I not argue that if we are all a result of chance then there is no higher purpose save that of surviving.It's silly that you think eternal life is equal in purpose to hunting and killing for a few years on a planet trying to muster some joy. The implications of atheism and hihilism etc...simply don't achieve the purpose in living forever - and actually being known - by name, by God - who created the universe - and despite our infinitely tiny size - actually intends on giving us life with him - forever.OR, be an animal and find what joy there is on earth, despite Christ offering life abundantly on earth aswell as in heaven.What you can't connect, is that if Dawkins is right, and we believers just need to "grow up", then we have infinitely less purpose in this universe, and basically - when your times up - that's it, your times up.So Ecclesiastes, as I have mentioned already - makes a point which you obviously ignored. That man won't come back to observe his works on earth - as he is done with the earth and might aswell ENJOY his work while on earth. Now Christ came to give life more abundantly.Now Sherlock, as you can see - my thoughts go deeper than insulting people. Dawkin's makes his case that science is wonderful etc..and he's right - but IMHO, he's truly not in the know about what existence actually means, if by examining letters in Shakespeare, is his method of how good it is.It's like Einstein said - what can science say about music?By all means put science on a pedestal - but I won't. You said earlier Sherlock, that you're glad I didn't call it science, when referring to theism. That gave Columbo insight into your outlook. But I won't try and make anything science - because it's not my ultimate truth - nor do I need to try and exalt God to science when he is above it imo. You're choosing to fight with me, but I don't know why. I am not accusing you, but for me - the nihilistic, atheistic and purposeless picture is unnaceptable for me - how's that an attack? it's an observation of adherents who come up with evolution having all the answers. It's not name-calling, but it was a provocative statement - maybe I shouldn't have generalised - for that I apologize.The philosophy goes like this;Evolution provides a mouth aswell as a bumhole. Evolution provides the necessary mechanism for sperm to break through to get to the egg. Evolution provides each and every mutation required for a system - all at the same time. For example, if you have a system that has a mouth aswell as a bumhole - you'll need both at the same time - obviously, or you'll end up full of shi* like mike. (Why do I feel he will agree with this point)This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 12-19-2004 08:12 PM

I was going to post some salient points from the piece, but that would really detract from the event.http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/crexpose.htm
Creationist Deception ExposedHe was conned into letting an AIG affiliate film crew do an "interview" where he was later taken completely out of context and "quote mined" in a most venal manner.And anyone who thinks that AIG doesn't intentionally lie needs to read this and explain how it can be anything else.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Look - even Dawkins is afraid of me.

actuallythey were eliminating that as a cause.

Once again we see that creationists such as ICR and AIG are without honor and continue to lie.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes. This kind of behavior is inexcusable as anything but malicious or insane (the stupid and the ignorant possibilities can be eliminated) ... to paraphrase a quote by Dawkins.And any supporter of AIG or ICR (which also backs the tape) should be made aware of this maliciously meant mendacity.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

The musings of Solomon, wonderings, suppositions, or such.
What it has to do with the main theme of scripture is not apparent to me. Who has not wondered out loud or within himself if what there is - is all there is? Even those who are absolutely certain that this is all there is, entertain a very small voice inside that wonders.--------It says So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?-------Not many teach this fact:
Ecclesiastes 9:
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.Psalms 146:
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.Perhaps that helps you, Mike. Nowhere in scripture does it say that the animals were created in the image of God. They, as everything in nature, is created for our joy.

What is 'soul'?A combination of the dust of the earth, or the ground, and in an intimate moment beyond comparison, the God of the universe bent over his creation and breathed the breath of life into its nostrils, and man became a living soul.Ergo.....dust+breath=soulJes' talkin.....man does not have a living soul, he is one.Animals were not part of that process.This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 12-19-2004 10:00 PMThis message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 12-19-2004 10:01 PM

Aslan is the only Lion, Arie gur Yehuda.It takes all kinds, and those without honor may be found wherever and whenever you wish to see them.

mike the wiz responds to me:

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That means that in order to take offense, you must qualify as one who believes in a purposeless and bleak picture.

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Incorrect. I don't have to be black to be offended by people insulting blacks by calling them "nigger." I don't have to be gay to be offended by "faggot." I don't have to be a woman to be offended when someone says, "She's such a cunt."Insults are insults no matter if they are directed at me or not.

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But basically - if no God created the universe, and evolution is without purpose then.....hmmmmm, I'm confident you can figure the rest out.

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Yep. The rest is that questions of purpose cannot be found in evolution. But then again, questions of purpose cannot be found in gravity, light, electricity, magnetism, or any other scientific field you might care to name. Science is not philosophy.Just because something wasn't deliberately, personally, and lovingly created doesn't mean it has no purpose. It simply means that the question of purpose must come from somewhere else other than the one who created it.By your logic, atheists would just as soon kill you as look at you since you have no purpose.

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Certainly for eternal life - you'd have to look to cryogenics.. Now - call me silly but that's bleak and purpose as I meant it is not there....etc....see where I'm going yet?

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Yep. The same place you always go: Atheists are psychotic, depressed individuals just one step away from destroying everything in a fit of pique.Yes, mike, you personally attacked a lot of people.

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Search your Bible. Where does it say exactly how god did it? I can't seem to find it. Who are you to tell god how to do things?

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I'm not, didn't you read where I admitt the possibilities of evolution?

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Can't read what you didn't write. Here's what you said: In other words, you're still holding back. You think that evolution is some sort of anti-god, "atheistic/nihilistic" scheme to get you to fall into the hands of the devil.How can you claim to "admit the possibilities of evolution" when you don't even know what evolution is?

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Yet certainly there is not enough evidence for abiogenesis

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What does evolution have to do with abiogenesis? We've been over this before, mike. How many times must it be repeated before you remember? Evolution is compatible with every method of genesis you care to imagine. Life could arise chemically through abiogenesis, supernaturally through god zap-poofing it into existence, extraterrestrially through alien seeding or panspermia, interdimensionally through a rift in space-time, or any other method you could care to fantasize about. Evolution doesn't care so long as that life doesn't reproduce perfectly from generation to generation. That's it. That's all evolution needs.Are you saying god can't create life that evolves?

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and macro evolution might aswell be a pink unicorn

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There is no such thing as "macroevolution" as distinct from evolution. If you have any evolution, then you have "macroevolution."If 1 + 1 = 2, why can't 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 10?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

mike the wiz responds to holmes:

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Does abiogenesis and evolution and atheism paint a meaningful picture concerning the purpose of an individual circling a small apparently unimpressive sun?

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You're conflating apples and oranges. Of course neither abiogenesis nor evolution "paint a meaningful picture concerning the purpose of an individual circling a small apparently unimpressive sun." But neither does gravity, light, magnetism, the Krebs cycle, photosynthesis, the Four Color Theorem, or any other scientific or mathematical field give us any information about what the meaning of life is. Science is not philosophy.When I drop a ball from my hand, it falls to the ground. Where does this tell me how I should treat the poor? When populations of organisms are observed over time, they change. Where does this tell me if the rite of marriage is sacred? Anybody trying to find morality in science is doomed to failure because science cannot tell you how to feel or what to do.Science can tell you that if you perform a particular sequence of events, a person will die. It cannot tell you if you should perform that sequence of events.

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Could I not argue that if we are all a result of chance then there is no higher purpose save that of surviving.

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No, you couldn't. You are assuming that the only place purpose can come from is through an external source that is personally, deliberately, and lovingly involved in the creation. Why can't someone define his own purpose?By your logic, atheists are psychotic killers who would sooner murder you in your sleep than say hello because, after all, you have no purpose.

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It's silly that you think eternal life is equal in purpose to hunting and killing for a few years on a planet trying to muster some joy.

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It's silly that you think eternal life is equal to striving to make the world a better place here and now given the short time that you have in order to give joy to those that would come after you.Once again, you show that you have absolutely no respect for anybody who dares to contradict you in your declamation that they are depressed, pitiful beings who are a stone's throw away from suicide due to despair.

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The implications of atheism and hihilism

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When did atheism become a synonym for nihilism? When did atheists become nihilists? When did nihilists become atheists?

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What you can't connect, is that if Dawkins is right, and we believers just need to "grow up", then we have infinitely less purpose in this universe, and basically - when your times up - that's it, your times up.

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Incorrect. If Dawkins is right, then your purpose becomes your responsibility. If you want it to be something lasting through the ages, then you had better work your butt off while you have the chance since when your time's up, your time's up.Since when did a self-defined purpose become something less than infinite? The only reason you are here is because of all the people who came before you. Life has been churning on this planet for billions of years. And here you are pissing on their gift.

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It's like Einstein said - what can science say about music?

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Thank you. That was me who said that. I didn't think you considered me an Einstein.

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By all means put science on a pedestal - but I won't.

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But you do. You expect science to tell you how to feel and what to do. It never has and it never will. And then you get pissed off because it doesn't. The sooner you stop trying to find philosophy in science, the better off you'll be.

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but for me - the nihilistic, atheistic and purposeless picture is unnaceptable for me - how's that an attack?

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Because atheism has nothing to do with nihilism or "purposelessness." And for you to continually confuse atheism with them is insulting.Atheists have purpose. They simply don't need god to tell them what it is. And it is just as grand and glorious, just as infinite and far-reaching, just as joyful and consoling as yours.

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The philosophy goes like this;

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Evolution provides a mouth aswell as a bumhole.

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Just a parboiled second. How is that philosophy? Where do we find anything about how we should treat our fellows in the knowledge that we have an alimentary canal?Once again, you seem to be incapable of comprehending the difference between science and philosophy.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

PecosGeorge writes:

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Ergo.....dust+breath=soul

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Jes' talkin.....man does not have a living soul, he is one.

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Animals were not part of that process.

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That's not what the Bible says:Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.Therefore, animals are made from the dust of the earth.Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.Therefore, animals have the breath of life.Ergo, if dust + breath = soul, then animals have a soul as they are made from dust and have the breath of life.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!