crashfrog responds to me:
quote:
No, irony is when outcomes differ from what is expected, like the way it's ironic that a guy who's avatar is a production photo of himself performing on the stage doesn't recognize hubris in one of its famous textbook examples, yet presumes to lecture others about Greek drama.
And yet, you haven't managed to explain why your own source contradicts you.
quote:
It has everything to do with Oedipus's desire to transcend his fate
That doesn't make it hubris. Hubris requires the shaming of another in order to increase oneself. Seeking to avoid fate is not an act of shaming and therefore is not hubris.
quote:
to act outside of his appointed role
That doesn't make it hubris. Hubris requires the shaming of another in order to increase oneself. Seeking to avoid catastrophe is not an act of hubris.
quote:
to reject his destiny as determined for him, by the Fates.
That doesn't make it hubris. Hubris requires the shaming of another in order to increase oneself. Trying to change one's destiny is not an act of hubris.
quote:
That's why Oedipus Rex is a central example of hubris in every drama course.
Incorrect.
Oedipus, the King is the central example of irony. My Script Analysis text,
Masterpieces of the Drama, never mentions hubris in discussing
Oedipus, the King but rather focuses on irony:
The irony of the play deserves particular mention. That it informs the plot is already evident. It also throws its oblique light on every character. Teiresias means to keep his secret but tells it; Iocast cheers Oedipus with her tale of a false oracle that turns out to be deadly true; the messenger brings good news but finds it most evil. Even the shepherd thought to save a child but committed him to an unspeakable destiny. The irony enters, too, into scores of lines that mean one thing to the speaker, another to the audience. "Poor children," says Oedipus, "I konw that you are deathly sick; and yet, Sick as you are, not one is as sick as I." The importance of this pervading irony is that it gives us a dual vision, a view of things as seen by mortal man and a view of the same things under the aspect of eternity. It catches in its duality the play's conflict and the play's theme.
Oedipus and the chorus ultimately discover what the irony keeps making us see”that the individual mind, self-sufficient in its ignorance, responds in fact to control beyond its ken, gives unknown allegiance to a will that unites the infinity of the world's separate wills into a single harmony. Before that greater will man can only do what Creon does”submit himself”and say with the chorus:
Let me be reverent in the ways of right,
Lowly the paths I journey on;
Let all my words and actions keep
The laws of the pure universe
From highest Heaven handed down.
But let's not stop there...my Intro to Theatre text,
Stages of Drama, has this to say about
Oedipus, the King:
The disaster experiences by Oedipus is often regarded as a fitting outcome of his pride, but it is difficult to see how the play justifies this interpretation of his fate. Throughout the play he is shown to be nobly unyielding in his attempt to rid Thebes of the plague by discovering and punishing the murderer of its previous king, Laius. Even when the investigation turns into an investigation of himself, he is unflinching in his quest for truth, though he is warned against it by Teiresias and Iocaste. He relentlessly conducts his search until he discovers himself to be the criminal, the source of the city's sickness, and by exposing himself brings about the renewed healthy of the city. His commitment to the truth tereby proves to be at once his triumph and his disaster.
Oedipus Rex raises haunting questions about the fate of heroic individuals, questions that it does not finally answer, except through the chorus' concluding reflections on human frailty.
[...]
Because it is the consummate embodiment of tragic irony,
Oedipus Rex continues to be highly successful in the modern theater.
Again, I'm not saying that
Oedipus, the King has no connection to pride. I'm saying that pride and hubris (they are not the same thing) are not the central points of the play. It's irony.
The Greek drama that is the central example of hubris is
Antigone, the third play in the Theban cycle. Oedipus has left the rule of Thebes to his two sons, intending for them to take turns in ruling the city. However, Eteocles banishes Polynices who gathers an army to attack the city and the two of them kill each other. The new ruler, Creon, declares that because Polynices attacked Thebes, he will not be allowed to be buried.
That's the the first moment of hubris. Creon seeks to shame Polynices.
Antigone, Polynices's brother, seeks to bury his body and when Creon finds out, he has her brought before him and sentences her to death. It turns out, though, that the populace think Antigone did the right thing and her fiance, Haemon, tries to reason with Creon, who humiliates him, essentially saying he's pussy-whipped. When Haemon and Creon's own son say that by killing Antigone, there will be yet another death, Creon becomes enraged and says that Antigone will be left to starve.
Once again, more hubris. Creon seeks to belittle Haemon.
Tiresias shows up and tells Creon that he's making a mistake. Creon finally sees the light and goes to free Antigone, but she has already committed suicide by hanging (like her mother, Jocasta) and Haemon, upon seeing his dead fiancee, kills himself.
Contrast the actions of Creon to Oedipus: Creon knew exactly what he was doing at every moment, and yet he went ahead with it in order to cast down those at whom he was angry. Oedipus, on the other hand, had no idea that Laius was his father and Jocasta was his mother.
And no, this isn't really on topic...unless you're going to try and claim that I'm a "hubris denier."
Edited by Rrhain, : Added reference material.
Rrhain
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