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Author Topic:   Fox news must die, CNN too
Verzem
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 51 (159393)
11-14-2004 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rrhain
11-13-2004 2:50 PM


Rrhain,
I could care less if some people in a church like to shoot pop cans off of fenceposts, or even just feel a paranoia (for whatever reason) to build up a weapons cache. The only valid point to consider is that the Branch Davidians posed absolutely no threat to the public.
David Koresch was just man who wanted to make some extra money to use for building some extra church buildings on their property. So, he dealt in guns on the weekends at gun shows because it was something he had some expertise in and could earn the money he needed. What a criminal!!
Also, it is not for you or me to judge the practices of people in other religions. AFAIK, no laws were broken by them. The parents of the young girls gave their approval. No one "had to have" sex with Koresch. There were no rapes. It was all consensual. There were no children involved, they were teen-agers. I think it is a bit young myself, but it is really none of my business.
I'm afraid that you bought into the dis-information hook, line, and sinker. That is why the gov't. does this kind of thing. It works.
"Cult is the church down the street from yours."
Verzem

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Rrhain, posted 11-13-2004 2:50 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 11-14-2004 11:11 PM Verzem has not replied
 Message 19 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2004 11:32 PM Verzem has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 51 (159438)
11-14-2004 6:27 PM


The NWI Network
I'm sitting here watching NWI right now. They're currently reading and responding to mail and phone calls from viewers. They say that they're working on new agreements with a South African news agency and with Aljazeera to procure English-language news programs from each. That would be a great expansion in coverage for this little network.
You should check your cable or satelite listings to see if you have the channel available to you. If not, you should contact your provider and insist that they add it. Those of you who complain about the major American news networks will probably like NWI very much.
EDITED to add the topic subtitle.
This message has been edited by berberry, 11-14-2004 06:28 PM

Dog is my copilot.

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 18 of 51 (159497)
11-14-2004 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Verzem
11-14-2004 3:20 PM


Verzem responds to me:
quote:
I could care less if some people in a church like to shoot pop cans off of fenceposts
Are you seriously claiming that that is why the Branch Davidians had as many munitions as they did?
quote:
or even just feel a paranoia (for whatever reason) to build up a weapons cache.
Excuse me? What do you think a paranoiac is going to do?
quote:
The only valid point to consider is that the Branch Davidians posed absolutely no threat to the public.
(*ahem*)
Why do you think they were being brought up on weapons charges? They had shown themselves to be a threat to the public. You seem to be saying that the BATF just decided one day to go hold a standoff in Texas as if they were bored and had nothing better to do.
quote:
David Koresch was just man who wanted to make some extra money to use for building some extra church buildings on their property.
Excuse me? Since when is the forcible rape of children something that helps put a roof on the church?
quote:
So, he dealt in guns on the weekends at gun shows because it was something he had some expertise in and could earn the money he needed.
Do you seriously think that was the only problem? And you haven't answered the issue of why he needed to rape children in order to do this.
quote:
Also, it is not for you or me to judge the practices of people in other religions.
Yes, it is. We live as a society and we as a group are thus forced to deal with each other. When someone is raping children, we are forced to act.
quote:
AFAIK, no laws were broken by them.
Rape isn't against the law?
quote:
The parents of the young girls gave their approval.
Irrelevant. Rape is rape even if the parents consent.
quote:
No one "had to have" sex with Koresch. There were no rapes. It was all consensual.
Bullshit. Have you not read the testimonials of those that got out?
quote:
There were no children involved, they were teen-agers.
Thirteen, while a "teenager," is still a child.
It seems you have bought the misinformation hook, line, and sinker, Verzem. That is why the conspiracy nuts do that kind of thing. It works. Koresh proclaimed that the end of the world was nigh, that they would be persecuted by the world, that the government would bring its wrath down upon them...and then he made sure that it actually happened and managed to get them all killed.
I guess he really was Jesus as he claimed to be, wasn't he? Everything he said would happen did happen.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Verzem, posted 11-14-2004 3:20 PM Verzem has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 11-16-2004 1:15 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 19 of 51 (159501)
11-14-2004 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Verzem
11-14-2004 3:20 PM


Verzem writes:
I could careless if some people in a church like to shoot pop cans off of fence post.
What!!!!
Verzem writes:
The Branch Davidians posed no threat to the public
What!!!!!
Verzem writes:
there were no rapes
What!!!!!
Verzem writes:
It was consensual.
What!!!! I suppose what Manson did was not murder. I suppose what Jones did was ok too. They were not bothering anybody.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Verzem, posted 11-14-2004 3:20 PM Verzem has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 20 of 51 (159526)
11-15-2004 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
11-13-2004 9:50 AM


It was actually a pet peve of mine that they called them "insurgents" for a long time. I'm glad they finally started calling them what they are: terrorists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 11-13-2004 9:50 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 11-15-2004 3:07 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 51 (159570)
11-15-2004 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Hangdawg13
11-15-2004 1:32 AM


I'm glad they finally started calling them what they are: terrorists.
The guys that kidnap people and cut off their heads are terrorists, yes.
But the guys that set up the IRD's and ambush military convoys, how is that terrorism? It's obvious that there's two separate groups at work in Iraq - the jihadist terrorists, using media and violence to shape Arab opinion; and the ex-army insurgency using their training and resources to attack our army.
How is what they're doing terrorism? They're attacking military forces who have illegally occupied their country. (Whether or not our invasion of Iraq was legitimate or justified, it was certainly illegal.) What about that is terrorism?
Oh, by the way, I'm sure you're about to call me all manner of unpleasant, anti-American names. Don't even bother. What you do is worse - when you dilute the meaning of the word "terrorism", you diminish the significant of every victim of terror. What's happening in Iraq is soldier-vs.-soldier. Only someone blinded by their own jingosim would dare refer to that as "terrorism."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-15-2004 1:32 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Dr Jack, posted 11-15-2004 9:12 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 26 by LinearAq, posted 11-15-2004 10:10 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 35 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-15-2004 3:11 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Verzem
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 51 (159597)
11-15-2004 4:19 AM


I have no intention of getting into a big discussion of the FBI murders at Waco, TX. It will only distract from this thread. I only brought it up to make an example of how the government spoon-feeds us dis-information. Sometimes this is done by using certain key words that help build certain prejudices. These can be words like: cult, compound, and as we now know, terrorists.
It helps build up the we are good, they are bad attitudes in the general public. And yes, it is so powerful, it can even be used to win elections. We just proved that.
What we really are, is duped.
Verzem

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by CK, posted 11-15-2004 4:44 AM Verzem has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 23 of 51 (159604)
11-15-2004 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Verzem
11-15-2004 4:19 AM


quote:
Sometimes this is done by using certain key words that help build certain prejudices.
Child-rapist?
quote:
It helps build up the we are good, they are bad attitudes in the general public.
So you would consider what was going on in that compound to be "good"?
You come straight from the classic school of "you've been brainwashed and don't see it". We do see what you are saying but just don't agree.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 11-15-2004 04:45 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Verzem, posted 11-15-2004 4:19 AM Verzem has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Verzem, posted 11-15-2004 3:08 PM CK has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 24 of 51 (159651)
11-15-2004 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
11-15-2004 3:07 AM


Whether or not our invasion of Iraq was legitimate or justified, it was certainly illegal.
The British government would disagree with you: http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page3287.asp

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 11-15-2004 3:07 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by CK, posted 11-15-2004 9:28 AM Dr Jack has not replied
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 11-15-2004 11:03 AM Dr Jack has replied
 Message 49 by nator, posted 11-16-2004 11:55 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 25 of 51 (159654)
11-15-2004 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Jack
11-15-2004 9:12 AM


and what a pack of liars they are - I seem to remember that the outgoing AG said that if it went to court, it would be found to be illegal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dr Jack, posted 11-15-2004 9:12 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 26 of 51 (159672)
11-15-2004 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
11-15-2004 3:07 AM


So...What do they want?
Agreed that they are not terrorists. So, have they expressed what they are trying to do? Get the US forces out of there?
Ok...then what?
If we up and leave, will there be a democratic process? Is that their goal...to allow equal access for all Iraqi's to the governing of Iraq?
Then why don't the insurgents try to become involved in the restructuring of their government...they WERE offered that opportunity. Their leaders chose to stay aloof and fight it out.
Fighting us is not making us leave, it's making us stay.
If we leave right now, will there be less oppression of minority/less empowered groups then there was before?
What does their history tell us?
Just so you know, I would love it if the troups all came home. I have a neice and a nephew in Iraq right now. My oldest son will go there once he finishes helicopter training (six months from now). I have 2 friends with sons there.
Regardless of what we want....regardless of whether we got there for the wrong reasons....I don't agree that Iraq can be abandoned now.
Fighting between sects and the grasping for power will surely lead to a very unstable country and could involve the region.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 11-15-2004 3:07 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by NosyNed, posted 11-15-2004 10:16 AM LinearAq has not replied
 Message 28 by CK, posted 11-15-2004 10:17 AM LinearAq has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 27 of 51 (159673)
11-15-2004 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by LinearAq
11-15-2004 10:10 AM


Re: So...What do they want?
Fighting us is not making us leave, it's making us stay.
History might tell them otherwise.
I'm impressed that you understand what might happen in Iraq if the US pulls out now given what a risk there is to those close to you.
I was semi-(typical Canadian) ok with the original invasion given what we were told but a major concern was what I think is now going to happen. The US has destroyed a state(functioning but not a good one) and will leave anarchy in it's place. This will be worse (hard to believe) for the Iraqis and a breeding ground for attacks on the US and all of us.
I just hope that, at least, there are no personal costs for you. There has been a lot of that already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by LinearAq, posted 11-15-2004 10:10 AM LinearAq has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 28 of 51 (159674)
11-15-2004 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by LinearAq
11-15-2004 10:10 AM


Re: So...What do they want?
You seem to entirely miss the point in regards to their involvement with the current iraq govt.
Why would they want to become engaged with what they see (from their point of view) as a puppet of the US?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by LinearAq, posted 11-15-2004 10:10 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by LinearAq, posted 11-15-2004 12:19 PM CK has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 51 (159689)
11-15-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Jack
11-15-2004 9:12 AM


The British government would disagree with you:
Based on an interpretation of international law that is, at best, unique: that violation of the terms of a decade-old cease-fire is justification for the resumption of war against that nation.
I'm sure Britain would "disagree with me." At this point, they have a rather vested interest in being "right", don't you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dr Jack, posted 11-15-2004 9:12 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Dr Jack, posted 11-15-2004 11:17 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 30 of 51 (159698)
11-15-2004 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by crashfrog
11-15-2004 11:03 AM


I'm sure Tony Blair and his government do. Lord Goldsmith, on the other hand, is supposed to be independent. I have no idea who is right; I suspect it is irrelevant either way and rather too much like crying over split milk for my liking.
Either way, I think the existence of prominent legal figures who disagree with you rather invalidates the statement of 'certainly illegal'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 11-15-2004 11:03 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by crashfrog, posted 11-15-2004 11:19 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
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