Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-27-2019 4:24 AM
22 online now:
Tangle (1 member, 21 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Upcoming Birthdays: ooh-child
Post Volume:
Total: 854,844 Year: 9,880/19,786 Month: 2,302/2,119 Week: 338/724 Day: 1/62 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Solving the Mystery of the Biblical Flood
axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 353 of 460 (14109)
07-25-2002 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by edge
07-25-2002 12:23 AM


What flood mystery?
Scientists have now documented over 600 flood myths from disparate cultures world wide. Noah's flood is one of them. About 9,000BCE, the glaciers covering North America began quickly melting. Check the University of AZ site for the latest, but much of this melting may have taken place within 1 human lifetime. There were 3 episodes of superflooding now demonstrated in North America associated with this melting. The Ice dam of Lake Missoula was estimated to be 2,000 feet high when it broke west. The flow of water is estimated to be greater than all rivers now flowing, as the 176 mile-long lake quickly drained. There is another eastward flow from a glacial lake that flooded east producing the spectacular gorges in Ottowa. This 1 Missoula event would do 2 things. Raise the level of the ocean within days and reduce its salinity where the fresh water poured in. If you lived on a beach in Yonaguni, near Okinawa, watch out. The reduced salinity changes the thermal layers which direct ocean currents and this changes the global weather. I am wondering if the lakes that burst through their ice dams weren't even more horrendous. About 12,000 BCE, water the Atlantic Ocean burst through the Gibralter ridge and flooded the Mediterrannean plain. At about 9,000 BCE, the waters broke through the mountain ridge at the Bosperus and flooded the plains around the Black Sea. This raised the level of the Black Sea fully 600 feet. Investigations are now going on to determine if this is "Noah's Flood". If so, the myth was passed down from the Assyrians to the Hebrew. Their myth is the same as the one in the Bible and is older. This Bosporus flood was so enormous that the former Black Sea lake spread a half-mile per day in all directions. The result is the ultra-strange border at 600 feet depth in the Blach Sea where the salt water that rushed in, sank, and became anoxic. That is why even wood and leather from Noah's time has survived. The top 600 feet is the fresh water. Then there are the megaliths under 100 feet of water off the island of Yonaguni (near Okinawa). Either we have to believe that the structures were above water, which dates the builders to 10,000 years before now, or thousands of people could hold their breath for weeks at a time and decided to build under water. It is looking like there was a thriving global commerce and culture before 10,000 years ago and that, like us, they built almost everything along the seashore. Then the 300 foot rise in ocean level over what may have been 1 human lifetime forced all of them to move fast. Incidentally, foot-worn paths have been found under water off the coast of washington state. If the level of the ocean went down 300 feet, Japan would not be a group of islands. Australia would be connected to Malaysia via Sumatra. Before the superfloods, land bridges and large coastal plains. After the superfloods, lots of islands. No more simple walking

It is all starting to become an integrated picture, if highly multi-disciplinary. The proof of all this is in the world around us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by edge, posted 07-25-2002 12:23 AM edge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Peter, posted 07-25-2002 5:27 AM axial soliton has responded
 Message 355 by John, posted 07-25-2002 9:23 AM axial soliton has not yet responded

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 357 of 460 (14260)
07-27-2002 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Peter
07-25-2002 5:27 AM


Thanks for your reply. So it seems. In the case of Noah, this flood myth is just 1 of over 600. Just because there are a lot of Christians and Jews and some of those 600 other cultures have since passed into history does not make the story of Noah the only one, the correct one, or even relevant. Maybe the one told by the Aborigines is more accurate. We need to look at all of them in the light of geological, meteorological, and cosmological (sun activity)evidence.

Two things.
1- The ancestors of Noah may have lived on the Black Sea Plain before the Bosporus broke. If so, The National Geographic team that found the ancient settlements under 600 feet of water on that former plain have estimated a flow rate of about 100 Niagra falls. If Noah lived there, he would have lost everything not on his arc. These people might have been able to outrun the water, but sooner or later, they had to sleep. As far as the mountain where the ark came to rest, we know they were lifted 600 feet into the air, just by reaching sea level.
2- The people living along the coasts all over the world suffered through a 300 foot rise in the level of the ocean at the end of the last ice age. The newest information continues the trend of shortening the time it took for the sea levels to rise. Within a person's lifetime is REALLY short. These people must also have lost everything. If you make your living from the sea, you live near the seashore. Maybe they had to build new houses every 10 years to keep ahead of the rise in ocean level. Wouldn't that be a catastrophic and life-altering thing? I just looked up the elevation where I sit at the moment... 300ft. I live west of Washington DC. It is 200 miles to the Atlantic from my house.

By the way, in the Christian version, did Noah have 2 of each of the dinosaurs on his ark?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Peter, posted 07-25-2002 5:27 AM Peter has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Peter, posted 07-29-2002 3:18 AM axial soliton has not yet responded

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 358 of 460 (14266)
07-27-2002 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by wmscott
07-24-2002 6:49 PM


Some research on the Lanai marine limestone fossil record produced 2 good summary references:
http://starbulletin.com/98/02/10/news/story5.html
http://starbulletin.com/2000/01/31/news/story3.html

The true experts have a decent handle on the evolution of the Hawaiian Islands and it does not support Mr. wmscott. As the Big Island has been growing in mass, the smaller and slightly older islands of Maui and Lanai have been pushed up. Teeter-tooter, they called it. Different ocean levels have also helped to produce underwater beaches. Reference 1 has a nice picture of a lake that is now under water that they want to transform into a botanical protected area. No mystery.

The ice covering Antarctica is ancient and has not participated in the glacial phasing. Cores at Lake Vostok amply speak to this. The Ice in Greenland is up to 11,000 feet thick and has been stable for at least 100,000 years. Unless Noah was a Neandertal, it is too old to count, too.

Finally, the Earth was not flooded. The surface area of the Earth is about 200,559,589 square miles. let's say 5,280 feet of water is considered flooding everything, even though the real figure is more like 16,000 feet. Also, lets use a simple multiplication of the surface area times 1 mile thick to determine volume of surface water to cause a global flood. I say this because it is an underestimate by a huge factor of 3.5X. So we are being 3.5X too conservative in the following first order calculation. So, there are over 200,600,000 cubic miles of seawater missing!!! Lets say this salt water (it had to be salt water, not fresh water else the remaining water would be worse than the Dead Sea) was stored in a glacier over Greenland, Alaska, and Northern Canada. I'll even include all of Quebec because it is French. The areas of those places is Alaska-656,425, Greenland ice sheet- 1,041,657, Northern Canada- 3,278,277 equals about 5,000,000 square miles. so 200,600,000/5,000,000 means the ice pack would have to be over 40 miles thick on top of the World, melt 100%, and do it in a flash so that the Biblical story would be supported. I don't think they have weather 40 miles up there. If they did, I think the water would be frozen, period. On the other hand, maybe the Biblical story could be satisfied if 200,600,000 cubic miles of rock were taken away and then put back in a flash.

If anyone is still with me here, the record of science is even more complete. The island of Midway is the northernmost seamount sporting an island in the Hawaiian chain. Notice on page 47 of the National Geographic World Atlas that there is nearly a straight line of seamounts and atolls tracing the activity of the hot spot back over 100M years between Midway and Hawaii. The plate over the hot spot is shifting in a straight line during this period. Page 128. About 1000 miles west of midway the atolls and seamounts trace a path that shifts north at Kammu Seamount. The seamounts in this line trace all the way to the Kamchatka Peninsula at the very location where the Aleutian and Kuril trenches also intersect. This means the plate has been moving for about 500,000,000 years and has changed course once. I'll bet the plate is slowing down and that is why the Hawaiin Islands are big and the seamounts get bigger going from Kamchatka to Midway.

There are specific answers in the 2 references and the Atlas to negate Mr. wmscott's many hypotheses, but It is better to provide the above summary for public view and urge him to review the detailed references.

There was no global flood.

For people living in small villages on the 10,000 year old Black Sea Plain, or any coast on the planet, their world was destroyed by water. We should celebrate their will to live.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by wmscott, posted 07-24-2002 6:49 PM wmscott has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by edge, posted 07-28-2002 1:36 PM axial soliton has responded
 Message 366 by wmscott, posted 07-31-2002 5:21 PM axial soliton has responded

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 363 of 460 (14454)
07-29-2002 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by edge
07-28-2002 1:36 PM


Ouch! You are right. I forgot to save anything about dating for the Pacific Crustal Plate for the post and have tried to regenerate it. That's why there was a question in that area, I'm sure.

The field is rich with extremely detailed data. What I have summarized here is that the movement of the Pacific Crustal Plate seems not to have been consistent over time. The range of speeds possible are from less than 1cm/year to about 16. At the lower end of speed, Gondwana is still on the map. At the higher end of speed, a sailing ship would be lucky if the islands were still at the destination marked on the map when it arrived. Not that this is any better a story than before, but this time I'll jist list the most salient pointers below for future reference.

Further to the previous post, it looks like the present movement of the pacific plate is generally parallel with the Aleutian Trench and head on to the Kuril and Japan Trenches. Before the shift at the Kammu Seamount, the Plate looks like it headed toward both at a 45 degree angle to each... right into the corner where the Trenches intersect at Kamchatka. Wonder what caused the shift? Maybe its timing was important.

The following should move the discussion firmly within the bounds of science. All work:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/publications/text/hotspots.html
http://www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie/class/100/plate-tectonics.html
http://www.ms-starship.com/science/Galapagos_geology.htm
http://www.rit.edu/%7Erhrsbi/GalapagosPages/Vulcanism2.html
http://www.oceansonline.com/hotspots.htm
http://www.geo.cornell.edu/geology/GalapagosWWW/GalapagosGeology.html
http://www.geo.cornell.edu/geology/
http://www.geo.arizona.edu/news/Sp98/
http://www.sfos.uaf.edu:8000/msl111/notes/plate.html
http://unix.utb.edu/~paullgj/geog1303/Plate_Tectonics.html
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageearth/hellscrust/
http://www.tulane.edu/~sanelson/geol111/pltect.htm

The last 2 probably refute some of what I saw under the name "Sarfatti"

I don't know how to insert a picture from my PC. There are 2 that are significant to this board. The first shows the crustal plates and relative movement. The second shows the glaciated parts of Austrailia, Antarctica, Madagascar, India, Africa, and South America fitted together.

By the way, it was a thrill of a lifetime to drive up the western rim of the Waimea Canyon on Kauai. A little past the ranger station/museum and complex with the unique antennas, one can complete the journey on foot. I followed the knife-edge path to its very end at a peak overlooking the northwest edge of the island. A tree-like plant is there and I had to hang on for dear life because a cloud went through and drenched everything. If you are going to do this, wear sturdy boots, take cowhide gloves, and plenty of water. Along the way, the path is inches wide toward the end with footfalls carved into the hard clay-like surface. On the right is as sheer a fall as gravity will allow for a steep slope covered with volcanically sharp rocks and stones. And, absolutely no vegetation. Nothing to hang on to if you fall that way. On the left is lush vegetation. You might be able to fall through it if you tried, but you would be crashing into limbs all the way down for about 3,000 feet. It was really far down, steep, and breathtaking.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by edge, posted 07-28-2002 1:36 PM edge has not yet responded

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 369 of 460 (14651)
08-01-2002 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by wmscott
07-31-2002 5:21 PM


Now we are getting somewhere. The geological processes being discussed that pertain to the Hawaiian Islands stretch back about 700,000 years for the Big Island. Since there are a number of past shorelines, at least the Big Island is still growing, and since shorelines are not symmetrical in, say, CA, there must be a second component not having to do with sea level at work in the Hawaiian Islands. The time scale is long compared to the proposed 6,000 year old Noah Flood. The glaciers have phased 4 times in the past 160,000 years. Here is an informative link. http://www.hartwick.edu/geology/work/VFT-so-far/glaciers/glacier1.html

If, as you believe,

quote:
Ocean islands only have their elevation due to the uplift of the hot magma beneath them. During low ocean volumes, the area of hot magma spreads out over a larger area, which lowers the height of the center below the island.

, then there should be a model that could show this. Hydrostatics and hydrodynamics are very advanced. In Greenland, there is a spot in the middle where the ice is 3410m thick and the elevation is 3270m. This means the weight of the ice has depressed the land by being directly on top of it. We don't know the original elevation, so can only predict the amount of depression. It is probably not 1:1. I would join you except for one matter. The weight of the water in comparison to the weight of the island seem cruxial. If a hundred feet change in the level of the ocean is enough to trigger an up/down movement, the system seems unusually sensitive. There must be a second phenomenon correlated with this. Perhaps the hotspot pressure phases, as well. I didn't see this in any references. Maybe what you are proposing, in connection with earthquake and oil drilling data could expose this phasing. Who knows, maybe that analysis would yield the missing link for predicting earthquakes! Finally, ocean currents can raise the sea level where land forces a change in course. If the land appears faster than the current can change direction, it could be spectacular. Finally, there is a note on the Greenland map in the National Geographic Atlas that if Greenland's and Antarctica's ice all melted, sea level would go up 6m. This is not a biblical number for 97% of the World's remaining ice over land.

When you said

quote:
The hyaloclastite nature of the activity also indicates this activity occurred when the islands were more deeply submerged then they are today

, a quick investigation shows that type of rock formation forms with quick quenching under a selected range of water pressure. It seems to me that hyaloclastites form during island building, the seamount stage, not during island sitting. Otherwise there would be old "pillow" rocks as on the Columbia Plateau.

Summary. Beaches must form in only a few thousand years. There is time for the Hawaiian Islands to teeter-totter during their occupation by people. If it happened there, it could happen at other hotspots. I am afraid this unintentionally opens the door for Herodotus' story of Atlantis. Oops.

On the Yonaguni structures:
http://www.crystalinks.com/bythesea.html
http://www.eaglesdisobey.com/UnderwaterRuins.htm
I like this guys multidisciplinary analysis. He makes the point that the last time there was a temperature as high as today's was 130,000 years ago. As that temperature fell once more to lower levels, the glaciers rebuilt and we had the phasing. Essentially, there were 100,000 years where now-flooded coastal plains were habitable.
http://www.divernet.com/profs/okinawa799.htm is a divers view of what he saw.
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html is yet another separate view. I somehow can't find my direct link to the page of the Japanese professor who is single-handedly pursuing the investigation. It really is offensive that western mainstrean archeologists and anthropologists are not helping him. I hope someone is keeping tally so people have accountability for their words and actions.

Last on Yonaguni. It is very near Taiwan. The depth of the East China Sea maxes at about 300 feet. No kidding, it was a low-lying coastal plain for most of the 100,000 years before 15,000 years ago. Maybe it was like the piedmont on our East Coast. If so, it would be replete with archeology. Why hasn't there been any news about the structures found on Taiwan? What about looking for more structures underwater around Taiwan in the former coastal plain that encompases yonaguni?

I know the dinosaurs went extinct, but I wanted to dangle some bait. I would like to post a response to the person who said it asking him for chapter and verse. I have read the Bible, too, and have several versions available to me. No dinosaurs. Let's see what he says.

Here is a thought. The dinosaurs did not go extinct at the Cretaceous Boundary event, http://www.athenapub.com/crater1.htm
but the climate changed and the big ones could not evolve rapidly enough to acclimatize. The smaller ones evolved even smaller to acclimatize and to compete with the mammals. Maybe they lasted 10M years in pockets while the mammals mutated to fill the void. I think only bats fly among the mammals, so this would be a niche that dinosaurs could fill. The point is that the mammals were small, rugged, and agile, and got bigger and more varied. The dinosaurs were big, brawney, and well-suited to a non-extent niche. Not enough time to evolve smaller. The same dynamics work for small companies looking to overtake big ones in the market. The tactic is simple. Change the market.

I am intrigued by Lake Missoula and the other 2 whose results have been found. I mentioned it in a previous post that would support your position, come to think of it.

Evolution may be like a superfluid in a container. It has an intrinsic rate of mutation that can be surpassed by environmental changes causing extinction. The word in magnetism is hysteresis.

100,000 years of human development is now underwater, maybe including talk about Noah's biblical flood. Hmmm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by wmscott, posted 07-31-2002 5:21 PM wmscott has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by John, posted 08-01-2002 2:00 PM axial soliton has responded
 Message 373 by gene90, posted 08-01-2002 7:03 PM axial soliton has responded
 Message 379 by wmscott, posted 08-07-2002 5:24 PM axial soliton has not yet responded

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 372 of 460 (14662)
08-01-2002 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by John
08-01-2002 2:00 PM


Sir, you take my point out of its context in your curt come-back and presume that the person to whom I directed it must respond with immediacy because you require it. All of us here should be objectively seeking the truth.

There is a step-by-step cause-effect relationship between what has been observed and what wmscott is trying to fit together in his theory. I am asking about specific elements of his process within his context. My questions must also be respectfully posed within the context of existing and potentially related phenomena to get my answer and to help him.

"I hope I get one soon." is not respectful. What are your intentions of making disrespectful demands on someone else's time? Why do you believe that help solve the mystery of biblical floods?

Editorial Note: Sorry Percy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by John, posted 08-01-2002 2:00 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by John, posted 08-07-2002 6:12 PM axial soliton has not yet responded

axial soliton
Inactive Member


Message 376 of 460 (14713)
08-02-2002 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by gene90
08-01-2002 7:03 PM


Well, I hope you are not too deeply offended. Whoever runs this crystalink page was the first to pick up on the new archeological finds. Maybe they did that for a reason you dislike, but they helped by giving another source for the information and pictures besides the Japanese professor while western mainstream devoted no attention to the finds and results. They took a chance when there wasn't a bandwagon to jump on. I am not otherwise aware of their reputation. Did you check out the other links and see the same or similar images? If not, here is the professor's, which I found:
http://www.summit-okinawa.gr.jp/tokusyu/ruins1.htm

Happy reading.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by gene90, posted 08-01-2002 7:03 PM gene90 has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019