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Author | Topic: Solving the Mystery of the Biblical Flood | |||||||||||||||||||
joz Inactive Member |
quote: Alarm bells are ringing.........
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: What? Look up papers by Dr M.J.Burchell the next time you have a chance, he`s done work on impact cratering in ice... On impact some ice is vaporized (forming the crater) the rest predominantly remains solid (hence there is something for there to be a crater in)... If there was any water around it certainly wouldn`t be running off into the sea it would be in the bottom of the crater.... Oh and for reference it would be highly unlikely that an impact crater would form in rock shielded by kilometers thick ice, the crater would be in the ice itself....
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joz Inactive Member |
You seem to have missed the point, you used the phrase "...impact melted water flowing off the ice sheet and into the sea..."
There wouldn`t be any because impact cratering on ice works by vapourizing the ice that was where the crater forms and the rest of the ice remaining solid so that there is a crater.... IOW no impact melted water.....
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: First you seem to misunderstand the mechanism of impact crater formation... If a body hits another body travelling faster that the maximum speed of propogation of a shock wave through the impacted medium (Hypervelocity) the kinetic energy arrives faster than it can dissipate. This leads to a sharp rise in temperature at the impact site. This increase in temperature vaporizes the impacting body and material from the impacted body forming a crater... Note the word vaporizes NOT makes liquid... So now onto your post... 1)Well yes it was in a vacuum, have you ever tried firing a .5mm diameter streel ball bearing at 6Kms-1 through NEA? How far do you think it would get? How accurate would it be? Also the experiments were conducted at room temperature so if the ice was going to reach a liquid state due to the impact it would do so in the experiment... 2)yes there wouldn`t be any melted ice (I assume you mean liquid water) in an impact in space it would be solid remainder and vaporized ejected material... NO water... Pretty similar to an impact into ice on earth... 3)Atmosphere yes (though negligable), ice surface no... The heat is dissipated by vaporizing the impacted material i.e it all goes into the (rather large and cold) atmosphere... 4)"ejected ICE fragments"???? There is no such animal bud the ejected material is vaporized, ergo is vapor i.e is not an "ice fragment"... Practically all the kinetic energy is released as heat and practically all of it goes straight up into the atmosphere along with the water vapour..... Not a lot remains in the ice sheet... 5)I know where it goes its you that seems to be having problems, it goes into the (rather large and cold) atmosphere with the water vapour, its dissipated through the atmosphere and it doesnt raise the atmospheric temperature by very much (by virtue of the atmosphere being very big and cold).... 6)Once again no such animal as "ejected fragments" and they certainly didn`t "vaporize in the air" because they vaporized before they left the surface.... As for secondary melting why the atmospheric temperature would barely change around the glacier... 7)a)Ejected = thrown up into the atmosphere, not going to run off over the ice sheets as you put it... b)Ejected material is vapour not liquid water.... 8)Which isn`t what you said with impact melted water running off over the ice sheets is it? Also the shock waves only carry a tiny portion of the energy of the impact... [This message has been edited by joz, 03-16-2002]
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: 1)First up by secondary melting I thought you meant due to the increase in temperature of the total atmosphere after the initial impact, shock and blast... Second think for a moment WMS if its hot enough that trees start to spontaneously combust will ice a)melt and remain as liquid or b)vaporize and disperse into the atmosphere as steam? Now personally I think its b) what about you? 2)Just thought I`d point out slight tremmors hardly the sort of thing you expect to smash a couple of cubic kilometers of ice apart.... 3)Possibly, and this is just a theory mind you, some bright young thing thought hey sod this running after the animals to kill them for a lark, lets put them in a pen so we know where they are.... And while we`re at it we could grow the plants we like to eat... And thus agriculture was born... 4)It would be kind of freaky if they had always lived in the plains but didn`t their ancestors cross the (apologies for spelling here) baring straights from asia? 5)"...impact melted water flowing off the ice sheet and into the sea..." is the exact phrase that I objected to... I know that a lot of water is thrown up into the atmosphere but its hardly relevant to the phrase I objected to.... Just for reference I think that you are vastly overestimating the ammount of water released to the atmosphere... Also once again please note that an impact event is not an explosion as such and material ejected would predominantly (close to 100% there of) be vaporized... [This message has been edited by joz, 03-19-2002]
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: 1)I`m not arguing that the water is lost merely that if its vapour it won`t be "...impact melted water flowing off the ice sheet and into the sea..." as you put it... Also there wouldn`t be a lot of liquid water around plenty of vapour but not a large amount of liquid water... 2)Once again I`m not arguing that the vapour stays in the atmosphere, this whole conversation is about your use of the phrase "...impact melted water flowing off the ice sheet and into the sea..." which implied a lack of understanding of the mechanisms involved... But I think you`ll find that the ammount of water released by an impact or series of impacts insufficient to cause a global flood.... 3)Keep looking your own source for the Siberian impact states "Seismographs sensed slight tremors" note "slight tremmors"... 4)The shock wave does have to shatter solid ice in order for any sub glacial lake release pal, at the edges of the ice sheet, unless you think that hydraulic pressure could force the water through solid ice leaving said ice intact... 5)Lets see from this site... The Pleistocene quote: So we hunted things out of exsistence (or they dropped dead of disease) so we started rearing them as livestock to make our lives easier... WTF are you trying to imply? That forming permanent or semi permanent settlements and adopting agriculture isn`t going to cause a huge change in lifestyle from hunter gathering.... Why do you think this would not cause a huge change in lifestyle... 6)So lets see they came from asia where there are also flood myths, they live well away from the sea. Thus the myths were probably brought with them from asia which makes it rather disingenuous to write "...Amerind traditions describe the emergence of dry land from beneath a global ocean (a peculiar concept to arise among Plains Indians if they "invented" the story!)" i.e "there must have been a flood because these people who live nowhere near the sea now have this myth..." or to claim that interior asian peoples always lived in the interior...
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: 1)Fact is bud there wouldn`t be any "impact melted water flowing off the ice sheets" as you put it for the simple reason that the heat released by the impact would vaporize rather than melt the impacted ice.... IOW apres impact there would be solid ice (with a crater in it) and vast quantities of water vapour (the material that was in the crater) not torrents of liquid water as you seem to expect... yes there is huge ammounts of heat but that is precisely why the material would be vaporized rather than left as a liquid.... And yes it is pointless untill you read up on the physics of hypervelocity impacts.... 2)See this is what I`m talking about right here, your analogy with car crashes is inacurate in that in car crashes the energy does not arrive faster than the maximum speed of propogation of the shock wave in the impacted body... See the problem yet? The reason that so much heat is generated at all is that the energy of the impact cannot be dissipated by a shock wave... You do not understand the mechanisms of hypervelocity impacts go and read up on them then we can discuss this... 3)Cute if you had read past the first sentance you would have seen that I made exactly the same point about the shock wave breaking the "ice dams" as you put it... Oh incidently did you know that solids transmit shock waves better than liquids? What does this do to the idea that the shock wave was chanelled along the liquid chanel untill it hit an "ice dam"? 4)Regardless as to the theories as to why agriculture came about your original comment was along the lines of the move to agriculture from hunter gathering cannot solely explain the changes in human society, I would like to see some sort of justification of that statement.... 5)Lets see now weight is mass times gravitational field potential which gives units of [Kgms-2] i.e units of force Spread it out over an area and you get units [Kgm-1s-2] i.e pressure.... Yet you seem to think that its force.... When reading up on hypervelocity impacts read an introductory level physics text while your at it..... [This message has been edited by joz, 03-29-2002]
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: 1)I didn`t claim that it was a "binary" situation I said that there wouldn`t be enough impact melted water around to surge off the ice sheets... Think about it the range in which water is liquid is (by definition) 100 degrees C (or K) as the heat dissipates only the region that is heated to this temperature range will end up as liquid... In comparison to the size of the crater this region is vanishingly small... And I think you are underestimating the ability of the atmosphere to accomodate the vaporized material... Why don`t you do some maths and show me that it couldn`t? Which journal article? So lets see "Thus a Carolina bay type pattern of impacts, could have turned an ice sheet into a huge unstable pile of broken ice. Since a ice sheet grows as large as it can support itself, such a fracturing could result in a massive surging all by itself." So many coulds so little evidence..... 2)Of course it also means that the shock wave gets more diffuse and thus causes LESS damage at the edges of the ice sheet or at those "ice dams" of yours... 3)Change in enviroment leads to change in species, survival of fittest etc..... We adapted better than them.... Also I thought that Neanderthals went extinct 35,000 years ago not 10,000... Also the statement "no one a live today has Neanderthal genes" may not be as true as you think it is: http://www.pro-am.com/origins/research/neand2.htm 4)I`ll give you a hint when talking about the force experienced due to gravity by a mass of water distributed over a given area force and pressure are NOT semanticaly equal... If we were talking about forcing someone to do something pressuring would be an equivalent term, however in the context of the weight of a body of water and the distribution of said weight over a given area your semantic wriggling is invalid.... The longer we discuss this the less scientificaly capable you show yourself to be, to whit your misrepresentation of mitochondrial Eve.... [This message has been edited by joz, 04-12-2002]
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