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Author Topic:   The beginning of the jihad in Europe?
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3061 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 301 (257525)
11-07-2005 4:46 PM


What do you guys make of the on-going riots in France? Could this be the beginning of a war or something like that?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9938333/site/newsweek/

I really don't know if this is something they can address by more job opportunities and inclusion, or if this is the beginning of ethnic warfare or serious Islamic terrorism?

Hopefully, they can find an economic way to address this rather than a military one.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Chiroptera, posted 11-07-2005 4:50 PM randman has not yet responded
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 11-07-2005 4:51 PM randman has not yet responded
 Message 6 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-08-2005 12:20 AM randman has responded
 Message 88 by bobbins, posted 11-08-2005 10:18 PM randman has responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6616
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 2 of 301 (257530)
11-07-2005 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-07-2005 4:46 PM


I'm surprised that CanadianSteve hasn't brought this up yet. Maybe he's been waiting for someone else to start?


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 301 (257531)
11-07-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-07-2005 4:46 PM


Didn't we just have black Christians rioting in Toledo?

Why is it that when black Christians riot, it's a black thing; but when black Muslims riot, it's a Muslim thing? Isn't that a little stupid?

Other than the fact that the community involved is almost entirely african Muslim, there's no reason to consider this a Muslim thing. These people have been downtrodden and discriminated against for a decade; I don't see any evidence that Al-Queda or any jihadist group is behind this. It's just plain-old poverty-driven violence.


This message is a reply to:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4635 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 4 of 301 (257624)
11-07-2005 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
11-07-2005 4:51 PM


Socio-economic reasons don't always explain
In fact, there has been very little discrimination against French Muslims. And even if there had been, many other immigrant groups have, ultimately, prospered in western democracies, including, France, despite that.

Were it the case that only in france did we see Islamic violence against a western state, then we migth wonder what is situation specific. But, in fact, we have seen 9/11, 3/3 and 7/7. We have seen serial acts of terrorism against Western targets going back to 1978. We see westerners blown up in Bali and shot in Egypt. We see churches burned in Pakistan, and Hindu worshippers slaughtered in India. we see school children massacred in Russia. And on and on. One can attempt to rationalize, even justify, each incident. But when taken on the whole, a pattern emerges, one not even the french are now willing to overlook.

Westerners who are oh so wise, nuanced and pc, (and inevitably leftist), are always at the ready to explain how we, somehow, are responsible for all this violence aimed at us.

Worthwhile reading on this:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20083

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn06.html

And this, which i;ll copy in full because i haven't a link:

The Real Global Virus
The plague of Islamism keeps on spreading.
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online



Edited out huge cut and paste...

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200511040840.asp

Not that hard to find a link..took all of 5 seconds

Please try a little harder in the future. - The Queen

This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 11-07-2005 10:40 PM


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3061 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 5 of 301 (257630)
11-08-2005 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by CanadianSteve
11-07-2005 11:32 PM


Re: Socio-economic reasons don't always explain
Good post. The lefties here want to blame the West, but they forget that one reason so many immigrants want to come to America and Western Europe is because these societies are generally superiour economically to their own. But it's hard to admit the truth.

Hopefully, France will take notice. It may be they can split the Moslem population by trying to correct some inequalities or offer some sort of programs to help impoverished suburbs, but at the same time Europe probably needs to awaken to reality, much of Islam if not most of it is inherently anti-Western and totally at odds with assimilation and tolerance. I don't know what the solution is but recognizing the problem is a good first step.


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Replies to this message:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4635 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 6 of 301 (257634)
11-08-2005 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-07-2005 4:46 PM


It is not the state's job to provide jobs and opportunities per se, unless we're speaking of a communist state. Rather it is the state's job to stay out of the way and let the invisible hand work. Not that the state should not ensure good elementary and high school education. Not that the state shouldn't ensure fair labour and work environment laws. But, ultimately, it is up to the individual to make something of him or herself. Millions upon millions of immigrants to various western nations have gotten themselves educated, worked hard and succeeded. Many set the conditions for their children to do better than they. Many had to learn a new tongue. Many are of religious faiths not of the majority in their new land. In other words, it is pointless, self-defeating, even antithetical to liberal democracy, to blame the state rather individuals for their lot. If french Muslims have, on the whole, failed, then we and they should ask why they, not we, not the state, are responsible. Is it because they keep their girls and women semi-prisoners, refusing to allow them to attend post secondary school? To marry whom they will? To work outside the home? Is it because they refuse to assimilate, feeling that they are in frnace to take it over from within as per Allah's will? Ist because they hold to non liberal democratic values, adn archaic ones at that? After all, many of the rioters have been shouting Allah Akbar, spoken of their towns as "occupied" by French police, ordered police to stay away (as they have for a long time), and so on.

Undoubtedly, france's socilaist hand has reduced economic opportunity. And yet, Polish, Hungarian, Chinese and almost all other immigrant groups have all done fairly well, roughly equal to or better than native frenchmen. The question, then, is this: what is different about the Muslim population?


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3061 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 7 of 301 (257635)
11-08-2005 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by CanadianSteve
11-08-2005 12:20 AM


well, I agree
But at the same time, I was thinking more of a military strategy. Is france willing to engage in a sort of ethnic warfare?

Perhaps there could be some accomadations made with a large part of the French Moslem community, as many of their leaders have denounced the violence and some have issued fatwas against the rioters. If France can obtain the assistance of a good portion of the Moslem community, they can more easily root out the trouble-makers.

It is probably worth trying to do that, and if that means more schools and programs, that may be better than outright extermination of 10% of their population.

I agree ultimately it may not help that much, and that these communities need to figure out a way to help themselves, but in the meantime, it could avoid a nasty urban war that could possibly only be won by killing huge numbers of civilians that the Islamacists hide behind.


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Replies to this message:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4635 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 8 of 301 (257636)
11-08-2005 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by CanadianSteve
11-07-2005 11:32 PM


A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20059
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3061 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 9 of 301 (257637)
11-08-2005 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by CanadianSteve
11-08-2005 12:20 AM


One other note: maybe the wisest response is to demand France negotiate with the new intafalda and grant them an independent state, and only then can they have peace?

Land for peace. It makes so much sense.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by CanadianSteve, posted 11-08-2005 12:42 AM randman has responded

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4635 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 10 of 301 (257638)
11-08-2005 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by randman
11-08-2005 12:25 AM


Re: well, I agree
Islam has been at war with itself since its very birth. Principally, there are those who believe in the Sword Verses as written, and those who argue that there is a contexual explanation for them. The former believe more in martial Jihad; the latter more in spiritual Jihad. The division is roughly 50/50. And so for every imam who tells the rioters that they are committing sin, there is a counterpart egging them on. (There are many reports of imams doing exactly this, and of much coordination.) There are also those martial jihadists who know that it is bad strategy to overplay their hand before it is too late for the french to prevent a demographic takeover. They, therefore, want this rioting to stop before the french realize what disaster is foreboding: their very extinguishment in two generations or so, and actually do something about it.

The supreme irony is this: Muslims in the west will be more likely to truly and fully assimilate as liberal democrats once their homelands become liberal democracies. Until then, they see it as Islam always has: them and the infidel rest, whom allah has ordered conquered, subjugated, converted and ruled under a caliphate.


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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4635 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 11 of 301 (257639)
11-08-2005 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by randman
11-08-2005 12:35 AM


Funny you should say that
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20086
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3061 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 301 (257640)
11-08-2005 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by CanadianSteve
11-08-2005 12:39 AM


Re: well, I agree
Let's hope Bush's gamble on Iraq turns out a democratic republic rather than a theocratic one. I think it's possible for some Islamic nations to change, but at the same time, it seems the trend has been towards more oppression, not less.
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3061 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 13 of 301 (257641)
11-08-2005 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by CanadianSteve
11-08-2005 12:42 AM


Re: Funny you should say that
It's humorous, but at the same time, this is serious stuff. We can forgive France and the French. There are great things about their culture and nation. Geopolitics is just not one of them.
This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12404
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 14 of 301 (257645)
11-08-2005 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by CanadianSteve
11-08-2005 12:31 AM


Re: A prominent psychiatrist explains why Muslims assimilate less
Interesting. I particularly was impressed with this logic:
article writes:

According to Islamism, the West can never meet the demands of justice, because it is decadent, materialistic, individualistic, heathen, and democratic rather than theocratic. Only a return to the principles and practices of seventh-century Arabia will resolve all personal and political problems at the same time. This notion is fundamentally no more (and no less) bizarre or stupid than the Marxist notion that captivated so many Western intellectuals throughout the 20th century: that the abolition of private property would lead to final and lasting harmony among men. Both conceptions offer a formula that, rigidly followed, would resolve all human problems.

If this psychologist is even half right, the religious wars of the future are ineveitable.

As for Crashfrogs assertion that Christians are similar, it simply
is not so. Christians can easily assimilate into a materialistic culture...that is why we are such sinners!

This message has been edited by Phat, 11-08-2005 01:16 AM


A youth is a person who is going to carry on what you have started. He will assume control of your cities, states, and nations. He is going to take over your churches, schools, and corporations. You may adopt all the policies you please, but how they are carried out depends on him. So it might be well to pay him some attention.

A road is a flattened-out wheel, rolled up in the belly of an airplane


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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3982 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 15 of 301 (257655)
11-08-2005 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
11-08-2005 12:01 AM


Re: Socio-economic reasons don't always explain
The lefties here want to blame the West, but they forget that one reason so many immigrants want to come to America and Western Europe is because these societies are generally superiour economically to their own. But it's hard to admit the truth.

What on earth are you talking about? What lefty has ever said that immigrants want to come here for any reason other than Western nations are superior economically?

It is the likes of Canadian Steve which claim they sometimes have ulterior motives to change the nations, rather than to simply come here and enjoy prosperity.

much of Islam if not most of it is inherently anti-Western and totally at odds with assimilation and tolerance.

You mean like the Jews? Oh wait that's not very pc to recognize is it?

Yep they were criticized for the same thing, until their very different culture was allowed to assimilate. Indeed you could look right in their texts and see how superior and separate they had to live from everyone else. But eventually they did didn't they?

A bit of tolerance and time goes a long way in allowing another culture to assimilate.

In reality both cultures must assimilate to each other.

As far as France goes, obviously there are some issues of poverty and alienation going on. Much like when poor blacks rioted after the R King verdict, or many other instances. Its probably going to take a while. The people involved in the riots are wrong and making a big mistake as it cannot help them... but they obviously must feel better by doing it.

Good leadership is called for, let's see if any emerges.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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