Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Prostitution-what to do
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 121 of 162 (402385)
05-26-2007 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Jon
05-26-2007 4:54 AM


Re: Dead-end Alley or Four-way Stop?
quote:
One bump that's been hit is whether prostitutes are just like any other working person, or whether they are fundamentally different.
That was not your claim.
Your claim was, from Message 14:
quote:
We've taken the position that there's no problem, that these gals aren't any different than the rest of us”just business folks doing a job they like. Some might not like their job; I don't like mine. I'm pretty convinced that they are just like everyone else.
Again I ask, why are you convinced that there's "no problem"?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Jon, posted 05-26-2007 4:54 AM Jon has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 122 of 162 (402389)
05-26-2007 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Jon
05-26-2007 4:54 AM


Re: Dead-end Alley or Four-way Stop?
Jon writes:
One bump that's been hit is whether prostitutes are just like any other working person, or whether they are fundamentally different. Schraf has not come to realize that the former is true, and the last few posts have been directed at her inability to accept a so plainly obvious fact.
I have also not concluded that prostitution, despite being the Oldest Profession is a normal job for otherwise normal people.
Jon writes:
You came to this conclusion after analyzing three confused kids?
Yes, as a matter of fact. Where do you conclude that prostitution is just another job in the Want-Ads?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Jon, posted 05-26-2007 4:54 AM Jon has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 123 of 162 (402406)
05-26-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
05-26-2007 3:13 AM


Re: Walk This Way
Phat writes:
I believe that our duty as a society is not to support them by buying them for sex but, rather, helping them come to terms with the abuse of their past.
How's that workin' for ya?
Prostitution is the "oldest profession" and all the eager little helpers in the world haven't fixed the problem yet.
As Schraf has demonstrated, people don't necessarily want to be "helped" (at least not by self-appointed do-gooders). Why not allow them the dignity of deciding for themselves what "help" they need?
Where do you conclude that prostitution is just another job in the Want-Ads? Message 122
I don't think anybody has said that. I, for one, have suggested that prostitution should be treated as just another job - with health and safety standards, fair employment practices, etc.
Instead of concentrating your attention on how they got where they are, why not deal with the situation they are in?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 05-26-2007 3:13 AM Phat has not replied

  
Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 6075 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 124 of 162 (402424)
05-26-2007 3:14 PM


I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
IMO prostitution is the same as a marriage for the night. I would even be willing to say that prostitution is even a sacred act, as sacred as marriage in current form. Traditional marriage, on the other hand, is prostitution for decades, and turns out to be much more expensive in the long run.
I read it in Hitchen's book, "God is not Great",( Amazon.com ) that in certain Muslim countries they actually perform ceremonies of marriage followed next day by divorce, to make the sexual encounter legal within Islam. I think that prostitution should be legalized worldwide. Let freedom ring!
Edited by Jon Paine, : No reason given.
Edited by Jon Paine, : correct first para
Edited by Jon Paine, : add subtitle

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by nator, posted 05-26-2007 6:30 PM Jon Paine has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 125 of 162 (402437)
05-26-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Jon Paine
05-26-2007 3:14 PM


quote:
IMO prostitution is the same as a marriage for the night.
That is only if you consider marriage about sex and financial compensation for that sex, and nothing else.
quote:
I would even be willing to say that prostitution is even a sacred act, as sacred as marriage in current form.
That is only if you consider modern marriage as found in America and other industrialized nations only about the sex act, compensation for it, and nothing else.
Do you really think that modern marriage is solely about the sex act and financial compensation for it?
I'm curious; if the woman makes more money than the man in a marriage, is the man the prostitute?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 3:14 PM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 7:15 PM nator has replied

  
Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 6075 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 126 of 162 (402439)
05-26-2007 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by nator
05-26-2007 6:30 PM


I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
quote:
IMO prostitution is the same as a marriage for the night.
That is only if you consider marriage about sex and financial compensation for that sex, and nothing else. As you may have guessed, I have a high regard for prostitutes, call girls and the like. In response to your remark, let me say that I consider marriage to be about sex and financial compensation for that sex, and infatuation/respect/companionship. Both marriage and prostitution can offer all of it, if you approach it with the right attitude.
I would even be willing to say that prostitution is even a sacred act, as sacred as marriage in current form.
quote:
That is only if you consider modern marriage as found in America and other industrialized nations only about the sex act, compensation for it, and nothing else.
The definition of "sacred" that I am using is from Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
" ...4. reverently dedicated to some person, purpose, or object"...
quote:
Do you really think that modern marriage is solely about the sex act and financial compensation for it?
No. It is about all of that plus infatuation, companionship, warmth of the heart.
quote:
I'm curious; if the woman makes more money than the man in a marriage, is the man the prostitute?
There is such a thing as a gigolo. As long as both partners, or even a threesome, are happy with the sex and the compensation, it's all good. There are, in my opinion, as many warm hearted prostitutes and gigolos as there are married folks. And of course there are just as many, of all sorts, who are in the confidence game, including those who marry just for security.
There was a time when Geisha girls were highly respected and routinely used, even by married men, in Japan. This is the model that I have in mind.
Edited by Jon Paine, : subtitle correction
Edited by Jon Paine, : add last line
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed excessive quotes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by nator, posted 05-26-2007 6:30 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Taz, posted 05-26-2007 9:41 PM Jon Paine has replied
 Message 129 by crashfrog, posted 05-26-2007 10:25 PM Jon Paine has replied
 Message 135 by nator, posted 05-27-2007 9:35 AM Jon Paine has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 127 of 162 (402441)
05-26-2007 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jon Paine
05-26-2007 7:15 PM


Re: I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
I'm curious, are you for real or are you a fundamentalist christian pretending to be what you hate?


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 7:15 PM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 9:59 PM Taz has not replied

  
Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 6075 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 128 of 162 (402443)
05-26-2007 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Taz
05-26-2007 9:41 PM


Re: I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
I am an Atheist/Deist/Pantheist/ recognizing only the "God of Spinoza" as Einsteirn said it. Incidentally, may I recommend to all, the Christopher Hitchens book, "God is Not Great; how religion poisons everything". It is a great read, and expresses well the view that New Atheists need to speak up and be heard, that we are the minority of the 21st Century, and the world is sorely in need of a new enlightenment. Look at the fool in the White House to see how religion poisons the mind of the electorate. I say that as a retired military member honorably discharged.
In regard to who I am, I used to be a Christian and am well aware of the scriptures which I reject as unauthoritative. IMO if God = Universe, then all talk of such a god is quite meaningless except for those who need it to feel good.
Edited by Jon Paine, : sp
Edited by Jon Paine, : spelling

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Taz, posted 05-26-2007 9:41 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by anglagard, posted 05-27-2007 2:31 AM Jon Paine has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 129 of 162 (402447)
05-26-2007 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jon Paine
05-26-2007 7:15 PM


Re: I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
In response to your remark, let me say that I consider marriage to be about sex and financial compensation for that sex, and infatuation/respect/companionship.
If both spouses work, which I daresay is the general reality of marriage in the US, then who exactly is paying who?
There was a time when Geisha girls were highly respected and routinely used, even by married men, in Japan. This is the model that I have in mind.
Geisha weren't whores, though; they were more like paid entertainers. Sexual activity was generally at the discretion of the geisha, at least among the reputable houses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 7:15 PM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 10:36 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 6075 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 130 of 162 (402448)
05-26-2007 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by crashfrog
05-26-2007 10:25 PM


Re: I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
quote:
If both spouses work, which I daresay is the general reality of marriage in the US, then who exactly is paying who?
As long as everybody is happy, does it matter? Perhaps they are break even. That would be a good thing.
quote:
Geisha weren't whores, though; they were more like paid entertainers. Sexual activity was generally at the discretion of the geisha, at least among the reputable houses.
Quite so. And I would like to see all prostitutes behave and be treated as geishas.
No sexual partner is a "whore" (a term of dispersion) unless one treats him/her as such.
Edited by Jon Paine, : typo

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by crashfrog, posted 05-26-2007 10:25 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by crashfrog, posted 05-26-2007 10:45 PM Jon Paine has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 131 of 162 (402449)
05-26-2007 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Jon Paine
05-26-2007 10:36 PM


Re: I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
As long as everybody is happy, does it matter?
If we're going to describe marriage as long-term contractual prostitution, then yes, it does matter. Prostitution is where one person pays another for sex, where such payments may be money, shelter, or even drugs.
People who are "paying" each other sex for sex are just having sex, not engaged in "mutual prostitution" or some such.
If we're going to act like words have meanings, I don't see how your average marriage represents prostitution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 10:36 PM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 11:06 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 6075 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 132 of 162 (402450)
05-26-2007 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by crashfrog
05-26-2007 10:45 PM


Re: I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
quote:
If we're going to describe marriage as long-term contractual prostitution, then yes, it does matter.
I don't know that it matters but I do like the definition. And yes, words do have meaning, as you say:
quote:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) -
pros·ti·tu·tion
-noun 1. the act or practice of engaging in sexual intercourse for money.
quote:
People who are "paying" each other sex for sex are just having sex, not engaged in "mutual prostitution" or some such.
No disagreement there.
quote:
If we're going to act like words have meanings, I don't see how your average marriage represents prostitution.
I only mean to say that as far as I am concerned the marriage contract is primarily a financial contract, and if you do not believe this to be the case, you need to be made aware of what happens to property during a divorce proceeding. I do not despise marriage, just as I do not despise prostitution. I participate in either and both whenever it suits me, respecting my partners no matter what others may choose to give them as labels. And by the way, my wife quite approves.
Edited by Jon Paine, : add phrase

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by crashfrog, posted 05-26-2007 10:45 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by nator, posted 05-27-2007 9:49 AM Jon Paine has not replied
 Message 138 by crashfrog, posted 05-27-2007 11:48 AM Jon Paine has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 133 of 162 (402452)
05-27-2007 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Jon Paine
05-26-2007 9:59 PM


Re: I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
Jon Paine writes:
I am an Atheist/Deist/Pantheist/ recognizing only the "God of Spinoza" as Einsteirn said it.
Look at the fool in the White House to see how religion poisons the mind of the electorate. I say that as a retired military member honorably discharged.
Welcome to the club, which has a membership that is too exclusive by no fault of our own.
A bit off topic for this thread, care to start one that is more specific? I'm game.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 9:59 PM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 3:14 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 6075 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 134 of 162 (402454)
05-27-2007 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by anglagard
05-27-2007 2:31 AM


Re: I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
anglagard,
I am game too, and this is off topic for this thread. Would you offer your idea for a thread title and possible outline for the first post. If you would like to make that first propose post, then go ahead, and if you prefer that I start I'll do that and attempt to incorporate your ideas. JP
Edited by Jon Paine, : wordsmith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by anglagard, posted 05-27-2007 2:31 AM anglagard has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 135 of 162 (402471)
05-27-2007 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jon Paine
05-26-2007 7:15 PM


Re: I prefer paying for marriage by the day, thank you.
quote:
In response to your remark, let me say that I consider marriage to be about sex and financial compensation for that sex, and infatuation/respect/companionship. Both marriage and prostitution can offer all of it, if you approach it with the right attitude.
I work in retail service. I am paid to be attentive, helpful, friendly, and kind to all of my customers. However, it is a profressional relationship only. I rarely become social with any of them, and even when I do, I am not able to completely "be myself" since I am always aware that I am an employee of that shop and I represent it even when off shift.
There are many socially challenged people who regularly go to shops where the staff is paid to be nice to them, because in "real life", they have a difficult time making friends or even repel people.
They may believe that they have real friendships with the service staff, but they don't. The only reason they are given attention and their social inadequacies are tolerated is becasue the staff is paid to.
The reason the above is relevant is to explain how the (one-way) financially-based relationship that one may have with a prostitute, even if it involves companionship of some kind, cannot ever be considered comparable to modern marriage.
I am not paid, in other words, to pretend to like and/or love my spouse.
Anyone who thinks they are getting real love or companionship from a prostitute is fooling themselves, just like those people I spoke of above.
That is because none of it is freely-given.
Do you really think that modern marriage is solely about the sex act and financial compensation for it?
quote:
No. It is about all of that plus infatuation, companionship, warmth of the heart.
You can't pay someone to be your friend.
You can't pay someone to love you.
You can only pay someone to pretend that they are your friend, or pretend that they love you.
That is not real friendship, nor real love, because it only works when things are going well. When the shit hits the fan (or the money stops), pretend love and pretend friendship will not hold up.
(I do find it interesting that you mention nothing of love in your description of marriage)
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 7:15 PM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by nator, posted 05-27-2007 10:38 AM nator has not replied
 Message 139 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 12:02 PM nator has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024