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Author Topic:   who really owns "Chronicles of Narnia?"
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3988
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 46 of 49 (268195)
12-12-2005 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tal
12-12-2005 11:16 AM


Re: irony in narnia
Tal writes:
Maybe some facets of pagan fantasy, such as the good vs evil theme, but I'm not familiar with a pagain fantasy where the hero of the story sacrifices himself to open the gates of heaven to all mankind.
Hi, Tal. Do pre-Christian myths count?
The doctrine of the crucifixion, atonement and resurrection of a god for the benefit of "mankind" preceded the Christian era, as did the concept of transubstantiation (rituallly consuming the flesh and blood of the resurrected god to share his benison); even the notion of virgin birth was not new.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Tal, posted 12-12-2005 11:16 AM Tal has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 47 of 49 (268201)
12-12-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tal
12-12-2005 11:16 AM


Re: irony in narnia
Maybe some facets of pagan fantasy, such as the good vs evil theme, but I'm not familiar with a pagain fantasy where the hero of the story sacrifices himself to open the gates of heaven to all mankind.
Now you are familiar:
From article on Mithra...
Mithra was believed to have been the son of God (Ahura Mazda). According to Persian tradition, Ahura Mazda sent his son Mithra to defend humanity from evil and from the Adversary, Ahriman. Mithra was also believed to have been incarnated in human form, born from the immaculate conception of his Virgin Mother, Anahita, around 200 BC had a last supper with his 12 apostles before he died for the sins of humanity.
That's pretty tight on isn't it? Here is its history as a religion...
Mithraism entered Europe after the conquests of Alexander the Great and spread rapidly throughout the Roman Empire in later years. The Hellenistic and Roman god Mithras, worshipped by male initiates from the 1st century BC to the 5th century AD, combined the Persian Mithra with other Persian and perhaps Anatolian deities in a syncretic cult.
Of course that is not the only one, there are more but I am not going to go through them all. Here is another entry from the Wiki page of Jesus discussing comparable myths. Interestingly enough CS Lewis was aware of these and had some ideas of what happened...
...there are many similarities between stories about Jesus and contemporary myths of pagan godmen such as Mithras, Apollo, Attis, Horus and Osiris-Dionysus, leading to conjectures that the pagan myths were adopted by some authors of early accounts of Jesus to form a syncretism with Christianity. Some Christian authors, such as C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien, believed that such myths were created by ancient pagans with vague and imprecise foreknowledge of the Gospels. While these connections are disputed by many, it is nevertheless true that many elements of Jesus' story as told in the Gospels have parallels in pagan mythology, where miracles such as virgin birth were well-known.
Surprisingly they didn't even mention bacchus, so there are others not in that list.
On top of Lewis' fantastic method for denying the obvious conclusions (heck maybe they simply foresaw the box office success of the Narnia films?), some theologians argue that the devil seeded history with similar stories so as to create doubt.
You are free to come up with your own revisionist scenario, but don't let me know, it's depressing enough to know that two great minds could be so foolish.
In any case you are no longer uninformed. Pagan myths of almost the exact kind of story predate the Christ story. Narnia owes as much to Xianity as Xianity owes to pagans.
This message has been edited by holmes, 12-12-2005 01:50 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Tal, posted 12-12-2005 11:16 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by cavediver, posted 12-14-2005 8:31 AM Silent H has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3670 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 48 of 49 (269142)
12-14-2005 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Silent H
12-12-2005 1:49 PM


Re: irony in narnia
Holmes, do you have any academic references that discuss the Christian/Mithras parallels? I have spent some time searching but I can only ever find non-academic apologetics attacking or defending Christianity, neither of which are much use.
For example:
"there are no Mithratic texts or references pre-dating Christ to suggest that the Gospel parallels were not just appended to the cult of Mithras in the post-Christ Roman era"
"that is because all such documents were destroyed by the Christians who saw them as a threat. If the cult of Mithras was not such a threat, why were Christians so strongly denouncing it as a ploy of Satan?"
(total paraphrase on my part)
Is this worth a new topic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Silent H, posted 12-12-2005 1:49 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 11:40 AM cavediver has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 49 of 49 (269212)
12-14-2005 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by cavediver
12-14-2005 8:31 AM


Re: irony in narnia
Holmes, do you have any academic references that discuss the Christian/Mithras parallels?
I would say no I really don't. In fact I was not so enthused by looking into Mithras connections. There are other obvious connections with deities I was more interested in during that time frame, than Mithras. Though it does seem that Mithras has many more similarities than most.
Some of the more interesting places to read about such connections are from people at that time period (people like Celsus) who comment directly on how much it plagiarizes from other faiths.
In any case I did a little digging and have found that most references (including non-wiki type encyclopedia entries) cite this book by Cumont (and yes the link is to the book online), regarding the mithra religion.
Here is another site on the connection though I will admit I did not read it and am not sure what the conclusion is. It looked like it could be interesting and mentions another author, Ulansey, who you might be able to track down.
Have fun, and if you uncover some major problems, please let me know.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by cavediver, posted 12-14-2005 8:31 AM cavediver has not replied

  
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