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Author Topic:   Thank You Adam Smith.
kuresu
Member (Idle past 651 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 61 of 124 (347166)
09-06-2006 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by joshua221
09-06-2006 11:38 PM


Re: As for the rest of you!
ah, com'on, you can get my name right.

it's:

k u r e s u.

not

k u r a s u.

I await your response.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by joshua221, posted 09-06-2006 11:38 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by joshua221, posted 09-06-2006 11:42 PM kuresu has not yet responded

    
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 62 of 124 (347167)
09-06-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by kuresu
09-06-2006 11:40 PM


Re: As for the rest of you!
Haha, don't worry I'll write a nice long one for you. I'll address all your points. Too tired now.

Sidelined too.

Not phat though, he's on my side. Brian too. lol


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by kuresu, posted 09-06-2006 11:40 PM kuresu has not yet responded

  
CK
Member (Idle past 2265 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 63 of 124 (347224)
09-07-2006 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by joshua221
09-06-2006 11:37 PM


Let's start with a simple question
quote:
finally figured you out schraf.

You state premises, not arguments. Simple claims/questions without any supporting facts and evidence...


Em.. hello Kettle, this is pot, you are black. (I mean you have READ your contributions to this thread?)

Anyway let's start with something simple (and clearly, this will be simple and straight forward work for a profound figure such as yourself who has described smith's work as "feeble" and therefore clear had been able to do read, critique and dismiss it).

Since it seems we are discussing the fluidity of ideas and concepts that any particular aspect of Smith's work, let's start with something really simple.

What do you see as the influences on the transformation of the the invisible hand as a metaphor for the relationship between external actors, the labour market,superimposed fluctuations and so on in determining natural price to the more commonly found modern usage of the term.

Just the broad trends and influences will be fine. We can get into the more complex stuff later.

Edited by CK, : No reason given.

Edited by CK, : No reason given.

Edited by CK, : No reason given.

Edited by CK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by joshua221, posted 09-06-2006 11:37 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by joshua221, posted 09-07-2006 7:54 PM CK has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 307 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 64 of 124 (347229)
09-07-2006 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by joshua221
09-06-2006 11:37 PM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
quote:
I finally figured you out schraf.

Yeah, good for you.

Now why don't you address my post?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by joshua221, posted 09-06-2006 11:37 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 4064 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 65 of 124 (347238)
09-07-2006 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
09-06-2006 8:49 AM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
Phat writes:

Open reciprocity was very simple. If I lived near a forest and you lived near the sea, I could provide you with wood in exchange for you providing me with fish.


Yeah, but a another guy is offering me less wood but is also offering bananas, which you cannot offer. Sorry, but I'll trade with him.

Phat writes:

It became complicated when money was invented. For one thing, the reciprocity became fixed and closed.


Just the opposite! Money is a flexible exchange medium, whereas wood and fish are not! That's why it is preferred over barter (other than avoiding taxes)

I dont like it when the marketplace drives the prices. It means that I have to work for less because some cheap labor is willing to work less.

And why is the other person willing to work for less? Maybe because he/she has needs more than you. Maybe you have more because of others' hard work before you were born.

You are blaming the wrong thing. Corruption is the biggest problem. That is why Mexico is a failure and their citizens seeking work here (along with their thugs). Corruption and lack of incentive for workers is why communism fails.

Don't worry, though. The flood of uneducated people from culture-of-corruption Mexico will drain America and bring us down with them. The Democrats would rather have more votes than save the country, and the Republicans would rather have cheap labor. Neither one is representing what the citizens want (i.e. stop the flood and don't make them citizens).


'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 307 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 66 of 124 (347239)
09-07-2006 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by ThingsChange
09-07-2006 8:28 AM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
quote:
'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

It's nice to know that conservatives are at the forefront of promoting rational, civil political discourse in this country.

Bravo for supporting Mr. Savage's efforts on this front.


"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ThingsChange, posted 09-07-2006 8:28 AM ThingsChange has not yet responded

    
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 67 of 124 (347339)
09-07-2006 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by nator
09-07-2006 7:28 AM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
Yeah, good for you. Now why don't you address my post?

Say, where have I heard that before? Hmmm... Think that should work for him, when he just "figured you out"?

Heheheh. Just doin' a little needlework, back to your reg'lar program...


holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 09-07-2006 7:28 AM nator has not yet responded

    
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 68 of 124 (347358)
09-07-2006 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by kuresu
09-05-2006 6:54 PM


quote:
The competition's been arond forever--ever since we've had tribes competing against one another.
nicotene is naturally found in tobaccoo, and was already being used in the 1600s--why do you think it was a cash crop (for Virginia) under the mercantilist system?
money--ever since we switched from the bargaining system, we've had money. I mean, even Hammurabi's code deals with debt and credit, and we know they had money from the this--"if you don't have the cash, you gotta pay with grain" (paraphrased)
there have always been have-nots--ever since we've had greed.
I admit, social darwinism was bad--but so is this current capitalism--robber barons and Exxon-mobil was not what Smith was advocating
mediocrity has been here for a long while, and is actually not advocated by capitalism. why? if you make a so-so product, and someone else makes a better quality product, which are you going to buy? If you say the mediocre one, it is only becuase you do not care for quality.
You know, at least we get to retire at 65 and enjoy life afterwards--want to go back to a time when living to 65 was rare? Like in Smith's time?
slavery was well in existence before capitalism. Again, the sumerians had slaves. blame them for the idea.
Jingoism is a result of imperialism, see below
You want to tell me that Hammurabi, Alexander, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Hittites, and many other ancient and classical civilization's weren't in the least bit imperial, and wanted to expand their empire?
We've had borders since we first had city-states--again, blame the sumerians.
Nationalism is not the result of Capitalism--it is, in fact, one of the results of raison d'etat.
You know, I personally blame Osama for 9/11, but whatever.
Terrorism has been around for a long time--far longer than has capitalism.

Listen. Adam Smith perpetuated these ideas, and realities in his works. He devised much of the current system existing today in "the cizilized world". It's not even about Adam Smith, or who did it first. It's about how screwed up and horrible everything is. Many of your replies focused on why my facts were wrong, when I was trying to point out these bad things and this system. To go through each of my "thank you's" is trivial.

You expressed understanding of this though in quote "Something tells me you don't mean to thank Smith for not living, as he did in fact live. If you blame him for the "false" live we all lead, its our choice to follow the "false" lives. I happen to think mine's real, but then, "I think not" (oops. do I disappear now)" So I don't know if you know my intentions.

Also, connect the dots with the 9/11 reply. Ask yourself why anyone would attack us, think about it for a while, and then tell me.

quote:
Point put simple--quit blaming the wrong guy. Or, actually do something about it if you think it's so bad.

It is rather obvious that I would end in blaming much of humanity if that were the intent of my original post.

And I am going to do something about it. I am going to remove myself from the system. But I need time to think it out. I have people I care about who wish not to be liberated, who I do not want to sadden, or hurt.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by kuresu, posted 09-05-2006 6:54 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by kuresu, posted 09-07-2006 7:59 PM joshua221 has not yet responded
 Message 75 by CK, posted 09-07-2006 8:24 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 69 of 124 (347365)
09-07-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by sidelined
09-06-2006 12:59 AM


quote:
prophex
I have to ask. Are you able to offer solutions to the problems you think are presented here? Just how would you guide a nation state or city yourself? In what way would you get work done and how would you pay people?
Certainly a man such as yourself is not going to be hypocritical by merely pointing out supposed faults without showing the proper way to accomplish things to produce a world that you consider better run and more equitable. It is easy to talk of solutions ,it is quite another to convince the world to implement them.

Believe me, I have had ideas of my own, but I don't want power, or money, or to rule over people just like me. Power dies with my body, Money is an illusion. All I can give is my love, all I can do is transcend.

I can't put down into word what I mean by transcend really. But I have realized rather quickly that it is the only thing that is worth my existence.

My post is about me removing myself from it.

I don't want to change it, it's gone, it's over, it was destroyed at the eating of the fruit, it's sin, and it's forever.

I don't want to be a part of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by sidelined, posted 09-06-2006 12:59 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-07-2006 9:36 PM joshua221 has responded
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 70 of 124 (347369)
09-07-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by CK
09-07-2006 7:00 AM


Re: Let's start with a simple question
Stop CK.

It's all meaningless. Those fancy words don't mean anything. It's all the same.

Recycled ideas, crap, economics is dead.

It's not complex, it's for simple men, it's for squanderers, and wastrels, it's not worth my time, and it wasn't worth Smith's existence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by CK, posted 09-07-2006 7:00 AM CK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by CK, posted 09-07-2006 8:11 PM joshua221 has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 651 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 71 of 124 (347370)
09-07-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by joshua221
09-07-2006 7:40 PM


why would any one attack us?

any one who has anything to gain, and nothing to lose.

it's not about capitalism. 9-11 was solely an attack against America for being the most powerful nation (and we are, for the moment), for being heathens, for having troups in Saudi Arabia. Osama is trying to destroy the top nation of the world--not because we use capitalism--but simply because he is against what we stand for.

as to fixing the system, if you find it so horrible--I'm so glad you're just going to go and remove yourself. Fool. don't you realize that you have to actually go into the system, start from within, and change it? How do you change politics? A revolution--the most effective are from inside. you don't remove yourself--then the system will continue to self-perpetuate. you wanna change it? get in there. start a company. show everybody the right way to do this stuff. show us how to treat employees right. show us how not to exploit the workers. show us how to make a quality product. Don't go running away. (hint: look up REI)

Change is happening. People are beginning to realize that the abomination known as capitalism today is screwed up--because people perverted it. Just like the neo-fascist nationalist party perverted the word nationalist, completely destroying what it originally meant.

Me, I'm pissed off with the government. And what am I doing? I'm not running. My friend and I started our own party to try and fix things. we're just getting off the ground. and have already had to change the name (thanks to the previously mentionded neo-fascist bastards). But we're going to actually try and change the system. not run from it.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by joshua221, posted 09-07-2006 7:40 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

    
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 72 of 124 (347371)
09-07-2006 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by ThingsChange
09-07-2006 8:28 AM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
quote:
You are blaming the wrong thing. Corruption is the biggest problem. That is why Mexico is a failure and their citizens seeking work here (along with their thugs). Corruption and lack of incentive for workers is why communism fails.

Don't worry, though. The flood of uneducated people from culture-of-corruption Mexico will drain America and bring us down with them. The Democrats would rather have more votes than save the country, and the Republicans would rather have cheap labor. Neither one is representing what the citizens want (i.e. stop the flood and don't make them citizens).


That's horrible, when because you live in a certain area, you are desensitized to believing that other humans are different than you.

I thought at first that you were kidding, but your "From:" says Mexican colony or whatever.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ThingsChange, posted 09-07-2006 8:28 AM ThingsChange has not yet responded

  
CK
Member (Idle past 2265 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 73 of 124 (347373)
09-07-2006 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by joshua221
09-07-2006 7:54 PM


Re: Let's start with a simple question
Oh - that's it?

Do you want to try again when you've finished the course? or do you want me to make the questions more basic?

quote:
It's not complex, it's for simple men, it's for squanderers, and wastrels, it's not worth my time

So why start a thread on it?

I know Phat will promote anything with your name on it (and it's pretty shameful he did - an adult should look out for a child, not set him up to look a fool in front of people), but YOU want to consider how silly and immature it makes you look when you try and play the big intellectual and then have to blow off the questions because you don't have a sufficent level of education to engage in the conversation.

It makes you look shallow and vain and confirms people's view that you are a silly boy who's read a few backcovers. Two threads in a row, you've done that.

You've know "the boy who cried wolf"?

You are the boy who cried "I've read it! I get it!"

Get your brother on here instead - he's got the same arrogance but unlike you, he has at least something to back that up with.

Edited by CK, : No reason given.

Edited by CK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by joshua221, posted 09-07-2006 7:54 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by kuresu, posted 09-07-2006 8:22 PM CK has not yet responded
 Message 78 by joshua221, posted 09-07-2006 10:47 PM CK has responded
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 651 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 74 of 124 (347375)
09-07-2006 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by CK
09-07-2006 8:11 PM


Re: Let's start with a simple question
you know what sucks--my college library seems to not have

"An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of The Wealth of Nations"

any other titles used that I can search for? I'm thinking a good reading is in order, but the damn library's lacking.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by CK, posted 09-07-2006 8:11 PM CK has not yet responded

    
CK
Member (Idle past 2265 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 75 of 124 (347376)
09-07-2006 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by joshua221
09-07-2006 7:40 PM


quote:
He devised much of the current system existing today in "the cizilized world".

wrong - I'm almost close to calling you a liar, Have you reallyread smith, I'm not sure how someone who has could make such a statement.

What did Smith think about regulation? What did he think about Capitalism? What did he think about Laissez-fairz economics?

At least make your non-answer interesting this time, at least give it the illusion that you've read his stuff rather than just seen the name on a reading list or mentioned in a lecture slide.

Edited by CK, : No reason given.

Edited by CK, : No reason given.

Edited by CK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by joshua221, posted 09-07-2006 7:40 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

  
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