Heavy Irony: hardright Israelis condemn Sharon as dictator for making them move

Sometimes irony is just way too much. This is one of those cases.Hardcore Israelis have been taking land from Palestinians for decades, at gunpoint, in order to retake the land that "god gave them" millenia ago.In doing this they had a firm ally in the shape of Ariel Sharon. He is a man who has been so merciless he was up on war crimes violations, and was even tossed out of power by moderate Israelis for being so cruel to the Palestinians. Not a problem for the hardliners.To being adding ironic material, Sharon was was also behind calls to kill Israeli PM Yitzach Rabin. According to Sharon, Rabin was a traitor to Israel for being willing to give up land to the Palestinians. Indeed his calls were answered and Rabin was assassinated by a hardcore Israeli.Well now that he is in the PM spot, Sharon wants to cede a small parcel of land to the Palestinians. Insignificant really, but he wants to do it. And he is going to have to move the hardcore (so-called) "settlers" in order to do it.It appears he may be willing to use some of the tactics he practiced (and the settlers practiced) on Palestinians on Israelis, in order to give the land back to Palestinians.The settlers are NOW CRYING FOUL. This is TOO MUCH they say. Well let me have them say it in their own words... (all quotes from this Reuters article)... Hmmmm, this is what the Palestinians have been saying for years. Will the cries of poor "settlers" be listened to where millions of Palestinians have been ignored?Taking a cue from the Palestinians, they are willing to use violence to protect their homes and feel it is justified. Oh yes, and taking a cue from Sharon, they might be willing to take a page from Sharon's playbook and assassinate HIM. So now Sharon feels justified in handing over land HE wants, and assassination attempts are bad. I wonder why the Reuters article didn't mention the fact that the assassination of Rabin had been supported by Sharon?Yes the irony is pretty thick and heavy here. For all those proIsrael, proSharon supporters out there... who is right?Oh yes, and for all those rational, logical, evolutionary proIsraeli supporters in general, let's remember why Israelis keeping occupied Palestinian land is so important... Biblical heritage. Yes, we should be supporting the rights of individuals to take property from others because THEY SAID GOD GAVE IT TO THEM?and... Ah yes, giving them BACK such lands would reward the Palestinians for waging a four-year uprising that they themselves would want rewarded and are planning to enact if the land is taken from them.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

It is not about religion (on any of the sides) but about power and wealth.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You could almost start a game of wondering who is talking, Palestinians or Israelis. Here's some more commentary about Sharon's actions from so-called settlers from this link.Hmmmm, when anyone else calls the actions of Israelis or Sharon "Nazi-like" it is obscene. Wow, sounds like what Palestinians and the International Community has been saying for years. Oh I see, its wrong to put an entire group into one category and punish them when they are hardcore Israelis, but with Palestinians... their ALL a bunch of terrorists, right?And remember why we have to support all of these settlements... Please, if there are any Gods, let there be a civil war in Israel. I want to see all the people criticizing Palestinians and supporting Israel have to eat their words.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I don't believe this one bit. The manufacture of Israel HINGES on its biblical origins. Otherwise they could have just founded an area in NY (which by the way some had tried and were rejected on Biblical grounds).The holding on to certain lands has NOTHING to do with making Israel more prosperous either. Indeed, that is one of the points Rabin and now Sharon have been making.You should really read the writings of the Likud and hardcore settler movements. It is thoroughly about religion for them.And I certainly hope you are not suggesting Palestinians are fighting for power and wealth. Certainly some on top may be milking issues for personal power and wealth, but the mass Palestinian issue is NOT about power and wealth.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Religion is but one tool. I don't doubt that one bit. But let me ask you to consider a simple scenario.
Tommorow, at dawn, a miracle happens. On awakening, every Jew in Israel finds they have converted to Islam. In addition, every Jew world-wide will have converted to Islam.

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Nothing else changes. Israel, the nation, is simply now another of the Islamic states like Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Lybia, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, all nations that have refused to accept the Palestinian refugees simply because they would upset the power balance in the respective state.
Would the situation be any different or would the Palestinians still require that the Islamic State of Israel cede land and power to them?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This has to be the most inane hypothetical I have ever heard. The STATE OF ISRAEL is based on a wholly Judeo-Xian OT concept.Let's say your hypothetical occurs... well then Israel will have NO REASON TO CONTINUE EXCLUDING MUSLIMS from Israel, right???In that case they wouldn't continue worrying about "occupation" and refusing "right of return". I mean it's not like they are trying to stop people from moving into Israel, they are only trying to stop nonJews from moving there.Remember they have a "right of return" policy for ANY Jew, as if their ancestry actually gives them a legal claim (3000 years old) to the land. But they have an active "right of refusal" to keep others out so that the Jews maintain a voting majority.So, as should be obvious, if they suddenly viewed all muslims as "family" they'd treat them like they do everyone else they consider "family" right now.In fact, in addition to allowing right of return to muslims, they'd probably do what they could not allow at its inception... turning the entire area (Israel & Palestine) into one ACTUALLY DEMOCRATIC nation where they are all treated the same.If you know the history of Israel then you know that it got divided into Israel and Palestine, as we know them now, in order to create a single country where Jews would be a voting majority. Your hypothetical removes that mandate, and the exclusionary policies which followed.This message has been edited by holmes, 09-12-2004 01:47 PM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Israel does not exclude muslims. In fact, muslims are eligible to hold political office or even be in the Kinesset. But wait! Are not all the other nations I mentioned also Islamic? If so, why have they not taken in all of the Palestinians? Probably as well as you.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You say this... yet also claim... One of those two does not add up.Israel does not exclude muslims per se, but it does purposely exclude any NUMBER of muslims in order to maintain numerical superiority in the government, right?And the reason why Israel was created with the borders it was, instead of just being the whole area was to create a single nation with Jewish majority in the government, right?The reason Palestinians are NOT allowed to return, but Jews from all over the world are allowed to return, is to keep a Jewish majority in government, right?The reason Israel cannot simply take over territories and leave Palestinians in them is to keep a Jewish majority in government, right?Yes, muslims are allowed to exist and to serve in office in Israel. I did not say they didn't. They are even table to increase their numbers through birth, and extremely limited immigration. The former is of such concern to members of the Jewish majority that they want to increase birthrates of Jews and consider it a "national emergency" if they don't.Again, your hypothetical would remove all of this. They would be able to allow muslims to return and even accept new territories with indigenous populations. Heheheh... what on earth does that have to do with anything? Oh well, I'll answer anyway.The other NATIONS are Islamic, but they did not include those territories (except in a few spots which I'm sure they'd love to get back). They do not want the territories or the people because suddenly taking in millions of people would probably sink their economies.And let's suppose for one second that they actually COULD and WANTED to take in those territories and people. There is NO WAY that Israel would allow those nations to expand their borders smack up against it. That would of course allow those nations to put troops right to her border.This message has been edited by holmes, 09-12-2004 04:44 PM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Actually, all of the other nations have worked to keep the Palestinians from immigrating to their nations for the very same reason, for political control.It's not about religion, it's about power and control.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Are you kidding me? For the very same reason? I did not list anything that was purely political control. We are not talking about just different political factions, or different national identities (which is what would be the case with the surrounding nations taking in people from that region).With Israel, the criteria for immigration, is religious alone. Is this true or not?If not, please explain how this "power" and "control" thing you keep mentioning fits with the fact that they will take people from all over the world of any political persuasion and nationality... as long as they are of Jewish heritage? Uhhhhh, well I guess everything boils down to that in some sense. But power and control of WHAT and for WHAT REASON?It is not about JUST POWER and JUST WEALTH.Israel is about accumulating wealth and power for an exclusive Jewish majority nation state. Is this true or not?If not, please explain the statements of the settlers, and of Ariel Sharon when he was fighting Rabin on the same issue.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Of course it's all about power and wealth. Where is the Palestinian Yassar Arafat from?Under my scenario, religion would become a non-issue. And under my scenario, would the Israeli government turn over control to the PLA?Come on now.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Wow, I have usually been impressed with your writing, but this thread has really brought out the worst in you.Not only have you steered it completely off topic (the original topic being the irony that a once oppressing group and their leader, now find themselves in the exact positions of people they oppressed in the past), but you refuse to answer the very straightforward questions I have given you as the answers would prove you wrong.Indeed, all I see is repetition of your little mantra which proves nothing. That is an incerdibly disengenuous analysis. The PLA would not have existed if Israel had not been carved out of that area of land in order to form a Jewish nation state.The fact that it exists NOW because of the past institution of a religious state, and so MIGHT be seen as an opposing political power if the areas merged should the religious state (in a bizarre hypothetical future) changes, is to confuse the effect with the cause.The very situation which is the topic of this thread is a deep division among Israelis based on the fear of losing land that has been religiously endowed to them. Some do not feel it is as important to have those lands as others. But what is NOT under debate (by the people involved) is the Jewish majority of that nation, and the right of them to have those lands because of their promise from god.Again, you can boil everything down to power, but that does not change the fact that the OVERRIDING ISSUE in this case is religion. It is accumulating power FOR a religious group.In the insane hypothetical you dreamed up, I have no idea what Israel would suddenly do about the PLA.The fact that you think you can judge whether 1) the PLA would come to be accepted as the official government, or 2) the PLA would disband as everyone comes into the Israeli government, or 3) the Israeli and PLA would remain as rivals, or 4) they both disband in order to form a new government, just shows how ridiculous you are being. Yes, please. Answer my questions. They were as straightforward as the one you put to whatever. If you aren't interested in answering them and insist on repeating your mantra and ridiculous hypothetical, as if they counter the actual reality of the situation, I'm gonna stop dealing with you.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Okay.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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And I certainly hope you are not suggesting Palestinians are fighting for power and wealth. Certainly some on top may be milking issues for personal power and wealth, but the mass Palestinian issue is NOT about power and wealth.

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IMO its definitely about power and wealth. But not as in, super-power or excessive wealth: but rather, the power of secure borders, civilian infrastructure, protection from arbitary violence. Wealth, with which to buy food, and more importantly water, and develop industries and schools.Power and wealth are not in themselves unworthy goals. IMO, the religion just serves to rationalise the conflict, legitimise it, define Us from Them.This message has been edited by contracycle, 09-13-2004 04:40 AM

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Israel does not exclude muslims. In fact, muslims are eligible to hold political office or even be in the Kinesset.

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Israel only permits Muslim political representatives if they agree to engage with an Israel that is explicitly a Jewish state. This is very similar to the tricamaral parliament in South Africa, which allowed political representatives that did not challenge the white state. Under this arrangement, there is no prospect of Israel ever becoming a racially inclusive society; the political system is expressly structured to prevent that.