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Author Topic:   C'mon Then - Abstinence
dsv
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 16 of 36 (221694)
07-04-2005 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by bubblelife
07-04-2005 12:50 PM


Sex Education
Abstinence IS taught in every Sex Education class in US public schools (not sure about the UK but I'm assuming it's pretty much the same). What exactly are you wanting to happen?

Would you like to see them specifically stop teaching about the what-if's and stricken everything after "..but if you do decide to have sex..." from the curriculum?


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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4014 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 17 of 36 (221715)
07-04-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bubblelife
07-04-2005 10:16 AM


There are several reasons why i would advocate abstinence.

Abstinence is a way to stop the spread of STDs. It is one of the best, though when it is coupled with the fact that few can stay abstinent forever, it falters as the only method which should be taught.

Once in a relationship, whether sex happened before or not, sex usually will go on. STDs can enter the scene from spouses viw nonsexual mechanisms (STD means can be spread through not that it must be) so the idea that one can 100% avoid STDs by not engaging in sex until marriage and have a partner which does not cheat is mistaken.

Superior to abstinence in stopping the spread of STDs, much more fun, is masturbation. One can masturbate onesself or others with no chance of spreading or catching STDs, unless one has open sores of some kind on one's hand.

But that is really just part of an educational system of how to have sex safely. The Safest is voyueristic masturbation (watching each other but pleasing yourselves), or mutual masturbation. Next is oral sex without swallowing (and making sure one's mouth is in good health). Then comes sex with condoms.

In any case the most important aspect for everyone, and that includes those who have followed abstinence programs, is getting tested for diseases. Someone else has already mentioned and I concur that screening is one of the most important ways STDs can be stopped.

I do agree that emotions can be a part of sex, but longterm emotional commitment need not be, and its absence is not a harm. Expecting that sex will always have such a significance can actually be damaging as it raises unrealistic ideas about sex, creating a social commitment where there is not an emotional one, and can be disappointing for people in a relationship when sex loses that edge.

The oddest thing is to treat sex as if one form of sexual identity or practice will be able to fit all human beings evenly. If God has some good ideas about how we should live our lives then it must be wired into us, and the one thing that can be seen is sexual diversity. Some are not cut out for longterm sexual monogamy even if they can enjoy emotional monogamy. Some can enjoy sexual monogamy but are unable to commit emotionally to only one person. It is very rare for people to commit to abstinence. That is the most unrealistic expectation of all.

This message has been edited by holmes, 07-04-2005 06:16 PM


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 172 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 18 of 36 (221743)
07-04-2005 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Silent H
07-04-2005 6:15 PM


Superior to abstinence in stopping the spread of STDs, much more fun, is masturbation.

hahahah. to quote my mother a few years back:

quote:
Don't worry about girls too much; just masturbate a lot.

it's actually really good advice.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 172 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 19 of 36 (221748)
07-04-2005 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by dsv
07-04-2005 3:19 PM


Re: Sex Education
Would you like to see them specifically stop teaching about the what-if's and stricken everything after "..but if you do decide to have sex..." from the curriculum?

i think that we as a society need to accept one very basic principle of childhood: kid's don't do what we tell them all the time.

that leads to another basic principle: kids will eventually have sex. you can tell them "god thinks it's bad" or "you'll go to hell" all you want, and it'll still happen. i think statistics show that kids are actually several times more likely to engage in oral or anal sex in abstinance-only programs. (i guess it "doesn't count")

so i agree. abstinence promotion is fine, but don't remove the rest of the education. because at the end of the day, if you're withholding knowledge, you're promoting ignorance. and ignorance in this area can be deadly.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 299 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 20 of 36 (221830)
07-05-2005 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by dsv
07-04-2005 3:19 PM


Re: Sex Education
Not sure about the UK but I'm assuming it's pretty much the same

When I was in school absistence was not taught, just respect and contraception. They were really big on telling us that carrying condoms does not make a girl a slag. Things may have changed, but I doubt abstinence is being pushed.


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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4014 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 21 of 36 (221831)
07-05-2005 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by arachnophilia
07-04-2005 8:14 PM


it's actually really good advice.

It's some of the best advice that can be given. It not only prevents disease 100%, it keeps people from getting desperate and so prone to making rash errors in the heat of the moment. And for men it helps ease the aging process as well as prevent testicular cancer (not kidding).

I keep forgetting if you are from the US or outside. You might remember that the US had a Surgeon General that proposed that very thing, and was booted out by Clinton after all the negative public reaction rolled in.

She still insists it was a good idea... me too.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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justdavid
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 36 (221900)
07-05-2005 12:51 PM


Possibly a digression
On a topic related to the abstinence programs, what happens when the students do get married? If all they know is that contraception is useless, how do they control their fertility?

I think we are setting young couples up for hard times financially and emotionally if we don't teach them that they can control their lives. My wife and I used contraception until after we were married a year. At that point we felt our marriage, and ourselves as individuals were financially and emotionally ready for children. Having lived through the stress of having a single, healthy child, I can't imagine how an emotionally shaky marriage or financially troubled marriage would last. Then what happens with any kids?

Schools should teach the full facts and include the range of major interpretations. The whole point of school is to prepare ADULTS that live independently.

The best plan is abstinence because..... The effects of STD's are x,y, and z. The use and effectiveness of each form of contraception and disease control is ..... You should discuss these issues with parents, siblings, ..... The annual cost of a child is.....


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Tal
Member (Idle past 3872 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 23 of 36 (221913)
07-05-2005 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by justdavid
07-05-2005 12:51 PM


Re: Possibly a digression
On a topic related to the abstinence programs, what happens when the students do get married? If all they know is that contraception is useless, how do they control their fertility?

I was one of those that waited until marriage to have sex. It was mostly due to biblical teachings on the subject; which is that sex is good, but it has boundries set by God for our protection. My wife and I used contriception for a year, then decided it was time to have a kid. We didn't make our decision based on "financial readiness" though. I don't think one is ever quite prepared aside from winning the lottery. You just have to adjust your lifestyle to make room for the new addition, and most of us have the capacity to spend as much money as we make.


"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..."
-Army Cadence

"A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future."
- General George Patton Jr

www.1st-vets.us


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Dead Parrot
Member (Idle past 1540 days)
Posts: 151
From: Wellington, NZ
Joined: 04-13-2005


Message 24 of 36 (221946)
07-05-2005 5:07 PM


Pediatricians' group: Abstinence not enough
News article for the interested...

Experts: Teens need access to birth control

CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- A leading group of pediatricians says teenagers need access to birth control and emergency contraception, not the abstinence-only approach to sex education favored by religious groups and President Bush.

The recommendations are part of the American Academy of Pediatrics' updated teen pregnancy policy.

"Even though there is great enthusiasm in some circles for abstinence-only interventions, the evidence does not support abstinence-only interventions as the best way to keep young people from unintended pregnancy," said Dr. Jonathan Klein, chairman of the academy committee that wrote the new recommendations.

Full CNN article


    
Meeb
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 36 (222401)
07-07-2005 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bubblelife
07-04-2005 10:16 AM


Do you guys know that there is an alternative to abstinence and condoms:

http://www.technicalvirgin.com/


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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bubblelife
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 36 (222546)
07-08-2005 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Meeb
07-07-2005 5:02 PM


nice website!!
Good to see some people with a sense of humour.

In answer to Holmes, in my school abstinence was not taught,however i grew up in Northern Ireland which has a different educational system to the rest of the UK and to America. Also it has a very different social structure as most people are quite god conscious there, and going to church and having religious beliefs is the norm rather than the exception. The 'church rallys' that i attended would preach from the view point of not committing adultery, where sex with anyone other than your spouse would be regarded as sinful. Yet quite progressively they did not discourage masturbation, just urged caution on the fantasies used. ie coscious action usually comes from conscious consideration of an idea.


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Lammy
Member
Posts: 3611
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 27 of 36 (222567)
07-08-2005 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by bubblelife
07-04-2005 10:16 AM


Let it be officially known that I support educating people abstinence plus!

With that said, um... abstinence only doesn't work... at all.


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Tal
Member (Idle past 3872 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 28 of 36 (223183)
07-11-2005 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Lammy
07-08-2005 11:33 AM


With that said, um... abstinence only doesn't work... at all.

Sure it does. It "worked" for me.


I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong

Do you know what your DNC stands for?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 34 by Lammy, posted 07-14-2005 12:35 PM Tal has responded

    
kongstad
Member (Idle past 1064 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 29 of 36 (223329)
07-12-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tal
07-11-2005 4:02 PM


Effectiveness of method
Sadly you cannot evaluate the effectiveness of a birth control method by anecdotal evidence.

You must look at a group that has been using that method exclusively for an extended period of time.

Now if people only use abstinence, then when they misapply the method they will have no protection against pregnancy or VD, so my guess would both more unwanted pregnancies, and greater spread of disease in a group that only uses abstinence as protection.

/Soren


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Tal
Member (Idle past 3872 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 30 of 36 (223332)
07-12-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by kongstad
07-12-2005 8:17 AM


Re: Effectiveness of method
Your right. I was just countering the statement that it doesn't work at all.


I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong

Do you know what your DNC stands for?


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Replies to this message:
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