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Author Topic:   "Only have ourselves to blame" NO!
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 112 (161637)
11-19-2004 9:21 PM


I have to admit I get angry when I see Brits telling americans that "we only have ourselves to blame" for getting Bush elected.
It's not true, we only have OTHER americans to blame. I certainly am not to blame I voted against Bush and tried my damndest to convince everyone I knew to vote for Kerry. My signifigant other took a leave of absece from her job so she could work 14 hour days campaigning for Kerry.
American people elected Bush (sadly) but specific Americans can only be held responsible if THEY voted for bush.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-20-2004 12:37 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied
 Message 4 by arachnophilia, posted 11-20-2004 7:32 PM The Dread Dormammu has not replied
 Message 5 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-20-2004 7:58 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied
 Message 107 by zol, posted 12-01-2004 4:11 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 2 of 112 (161800)
11-20-2004 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Dread Dormammu
11-19-2004 9:21 PM


only about 1/6th of the population voted for him. he's not been elected by a majority of anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-19-2004 9:21 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-20-2004 5:31 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 112 (161899)
11-20-2004 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by macaroniandcheese
11-20-2004 12:37 PM


Not even the majority of voters?
He's not been elected by a majority of anything.
Well he was elected by the majority of voters and that's what mattered. Or are you claiming that there was voter fraud?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-20-2004 12:37 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-21-2004 1:41 AM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 4 of 112 (161941)
11-20-2004 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Dread Dormammu
11-19-2004 9:21 PM


i voted for kerry.
so no, i do not have myself to blame.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-19-2004 9:21 PM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6863 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 5 of 112 (161947)
11-20-2004 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Dread Dormammu
11-19-2004 9:21 PM


my seven-year old grandson and I voted for Bush.
however, I did not vote for Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, etc etc or any other president ever elected who was close to or similar to Bush...and they are/were all close to and similar to Bush.
This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 11-20-2004 07:59 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-19-2004 9:21 PM The Dread Dormammu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-21-2004 3:22 AM PecosGeorge has not replied
 Message 8 by arachnophilia, posted 11-21-2004 4:00 AM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 6 of 112 (161982)
11-21-2004 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by The Dread Dormammu
11-20-2004 5:31 PM


Re: Not even the majority of voters?
yes i am but that's not the point. there was one city with about 200 people that had 5000 votes for bush...
no larger proofs have made it though

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 11-20-2004 5:31 PM The Dread Dormammu has not replied

  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 112 (161985)
11-21-2004 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by PecosGeorge
11-20-2004 7:58 PM


Huh?
my seven-year old grandson and I voted for Bush.
How did he vote for bush if he's underage?
however, I did not vote for Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, etc etc or any other president ever elected who was close to or similar to Bush...and they are/were all close to and similar to Bush.
Huh? I don't know what you are talking about here.
The larger question is; are we responsible for our contries actions even if we disagree/take action to change the direction our country is heading?
This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 11-21-2004 03:22 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-20-2004 7:58 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 8 of 112 (161990)
11-21-2004 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by PecosGeorge
11-20-2004 7:58 PM


my seven-year old grandson and I voted for Bush.
no, no voter fraud there!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-20-2004 7:58 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 112 (162534)
11-23-2004 5:07 AM


I find it bizarre that Americans, so quick to "bring" democracy to feoreign lands, are also so quick to disclaim the results of their own democratic process.
You voted. You engaged in a legal, formal process for sleecting your head of state. How can you not be respnsible for the result? So you backed the wrong horse; so you didn;t get the particular representative you wanted. How does this absolve you of responsibility? You made your agrument, if you participated at all, and you lost. Thats all. you cannot disclaim the result merely becuase you do not like it without refuting democracy in toto.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by zephyr, posted 11-23-2004 11:19 AM contracycle has replied
 Message 11 by Loudmouth, posted 11-23-2004 11:34 AM contracycle has replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 10 of 112 (162633)
11-23-2004 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by contracycle
11-23-2004 5:07 AM


quote:
I find it bizarre that Americans, so quick to "bring" democracy to feoreign lands, are also so quick to disclaim the results of their own democratic process.
Disclaim? If you mean to claim it is invalid, that is only due to the emerging evidence of fraud. If you are just talking about the weeping and gnashing of teeth heard from Kerry supporters, it is because of the collective conviction that Bush and his supporters are mucking up the future for all of us.
Let me see if I can answer your (rhetorical) questions. Apologies for chopping and forming your post, but you basically answered them yourself, as illustrated by some re-ordering.
quote:
You voted. You engaged in a legal, formal process for sleecting your head of state.
And,
quote:
You made your agrument, if you participated at all, and you lost.
Yes, Kerry (and Nader, etc.) voters lost the contest, according to the official counts. We are the losers. Thus, the outcome was determined by the actions of others.
quote:
How can you not be respnsible for the result?
Because the end result of our actions, had we succeeded, would have been a different outcome than the one which occurred. In other words, we were thwarted by the actions of others. It's fairly simple.
quote:
How does this absolve you of responsibility?
The responsibility for the outcome is borne by those who enacted it. Those who voted for the "loser" did not enact this outcome.
Free speech means that the right to say "I told you so" is the consolation prize of those who "backed the wrong horse", especially if the other horse turns out to be lame. It is also the mechanism by which the electorate is reminded to hold officials and their political parties accountable for undesirable performances. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but it needs some work.
Democracy was founded on dissent and the right of people to argue, whine, and publicly bitch about disagreeable conditions wrought by their governments. If you think that people decrying the outcome of an election is anything like people speaking out against the process itself, think again. There is a very large difference between the two. I despise the victor in this election but I adore the process that put him there. I don't much respect those who voted him in, but I'm at war (following orders from the man I voted against) to maintain their way of life and their right to do just that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by contracycle, posted 11-23-2004 5:07 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by contracycle, posted 11-24-2004 4:17 AM zephyr has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 112 (162639)
11-23-2004 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by contracycle
11-23-2004 5:07 AM


quote:
You voted. You engaged in a legal, formal process for sleecting your head of state. How can you not be respnsible for the result?
Were the people who voted against Hitler in the Parliment to blame for his rise to power? No. Were they responsible for WWII, the Holocaust, etc.? No. I am not comparing Hitler to Bush, just trying to illustrate that throughout history those who stood against a candidate were not held responsible for the actions of that candidate afterwards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by contracycle, posted 11-23-2004 5:07 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by coffee_addict, posted 11-23-2004 3:06 PM Loudmouth has replied
 Message 17 by contracycle, posted 11-24-2004 4:40 AM Loudmouth has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 467 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 12 of 112 (162689)
11-23-2004 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Loudmouth
11-23-2004 11:34 AM


Ya, but the rest of the world made their lives into a living hell even if some of them didn't vote for him.
The question is can the most powerful nation on Earth fight the rest of the world and still win the war?

Hate world.
Revenge soon!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Loudmouth, posted 11-23-2004 11:34 AM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Loudmouth, posted 11-23-2004 3:11 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 112 (162690)
11-23-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by coffee_addict
11-23-2004 3:06 PM


quote:
The question is can the most powerful nation on Earth fight the rest of the world and still win the war?
Nope. Not without a tenfold increase in trained troops. The US Army is not currently able to cope with more than one armed conflict like that in Iraq due to the "fewer, lighter, and faster" philosophy that they currently have. The War on Terror requires alliances of military, financial, and moral support.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by coffee_addict, posted 11-23-2004 3:06 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by zephyr, posted 11-24-2004 1:40 AM Loudmouth has not replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 14 of 112 (162818)
11-24-2004 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Loudmouth
11-23-2004 3:11 PM


I think it's funny that so many people confuse the war in Iraq with the "War on Terror".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Loudmouth, posted 11-23-2004 3:11 PM Loudmouth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 11-24-2004 4:40 AM zephyr has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 112 (162835)
11-24-2004 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by zephyr
11-23-2004 11:19 AM


Zephyr this is illogical:
quote:
Because the end result of our actions, had we succeeded, would have been a different outcome than the one which occurred. In other words, we were thwarted by the actions of others. It's fairly simple.
Yes I already agreed you didn;t get the SPECIFIC outcome you wanted. But, if I go into a store intending to haggle for a product becuase I only want to pay X rather than Y, that is merely my desire. If I don't get my way and have to pay Y I cannot then claim that it is the other persons fault, or that there was some culpability, or that the transaction was unfair, or dishonest, or innapripriate in any way. And the person who sold me the good, and everyone else in the community, can hold me to the contract I signed or whatever.
quote:
The responsibility for the outcome is borne by those who enacted it. Those who voted for the "loser" did not enact this outcome.
Yes, you did. Its your democratic process - you perhaps didn't get the candidate you wanted, but it is on YOUR authority that there is a head of state at all and that he has the powers that he does.
quote:
Democracy was founded on dissent and the right of people to argue, whine, and publicly bitch about disagreeable conditions wrought by their governments. If you think that people decrying the outcome of an election is anything like people speaking out against the process itself, think again.
No, thats precisely the point I'm making - you CAN say you are not happy, you cannot say you are not RESPONSIBLE. Of course you are responsible, who else put him in the whitehouse, Martians? If you say that ONLY his supporters were 'responsible', then you are essentially withdrawing support for the legitimacy of the office.
Part of the democratic social contract is that you are held to decisions you don't like. Your were a dsirect perciticpant in a formal process, you are REPOSNSIBLE for that outcome even if you did not favour the outcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by zephyr, posted 11-23-2004 11:19 AM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Silent H, posted 11-24-2004 5:14 AM contracycle has replied
 Message 20 by zephyr, posted 11-24-2004 7:01 AM contracycle has replied

  
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