Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8913 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-20-2019 4:56 AM
21 online now:
Tangle (1 member, 20 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 854,218 Year: 9,254/19,786 Month: 1,676/2,119 Week: 436/576 Day: 31/80 Hour: 4/8


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
3Next
Author Topic:   Hate Speech 101
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 44 (381957)
02-02-2007 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by kuresu
02-02-2007 12:07 PM


Re: Conservative radio
FICA is Social Security (which, I notice, has been chugging along just fine long after Bush-cult-of-personality conservatives breathlessly insisted that it was DOOMED!!!11!1!!)

wal-mart pays crap.

Wal-Mart is able to pay what they do because most of their employees are subsidized by welfare, etc. In other words my taxes are subsidizing Wal-Mart's wage structure. Personally, I think it's only fair that Wal-Mart is asked to compensate the rest of us (particularly those, like me, who don't even shop there.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by kuresu, posted 02-02-2007 12:07 PM kuresu has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 44 (382014)
02-02-2007 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
02-01-2007 3:18 PM


Crash on Fox
Crash, I remember you saying you're a Fox viewer to the point that you know pretty much what goes on there. Doesn't that make NJ's point that liberals prefer the more conservative shows?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2007 3:18 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by kuresu, posted 02-02-2007 9:10 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 02-02-2007 11:58 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 679 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 18 of 44 (382017)
02-02-2007 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
02-02-2007 9:07 PM


Re: Crash on Fox
there's a difference between watching a show and preferring said show over another.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2007 9:07 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5670
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 19 of 44 (382031)
02-02-2007 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by kuresu
02-02-2007 12:07 PM


Re: Conservative radio
Malloy may have screwed up on the whole tax thing (I don't know what FICA stands for, but I do know that I have taxes taken out of my paycheck).

Well, that's the whole point. The man is like 60 years old and will probably be drawing from his FICA pension soon. How can someone of his age not know what FICA is, yet somehow be given his own talk show? Its truly stultifying.

however, as far as liberals go, we want a greater equalization of wealth (and yes, this is a vast generalization--you have your socialists who want to go to the extreme, and you have your moderates who would like to see a strong middle class again).

Societies do not work without three classic tiers-- the rich, the middle class, and the poor. That's just a fact. Ideally, any healthy society should have more middle class than anyone else. But the idea that some governmental system can eradicate the lower class altogether is completely unrealistic.

Among the caste of elitists that liberals by and large adore, they create a false illusion that higher education is somehow going to be the bastion of hope. But this logic fails. They think everyone needs a college education. That's simply not true on so many levels. Not everyone is cut out for college-- they just aren't. And those without it shouldn't be looked down upon as if they are social lepers. To put it bluntly, how effective or how purposeful would a society be if everyone had a college education? What would make their qualifications any more special? The job market would be swamped with too many people with same qualifications which would completely undermine the purpose of having that education to begin with.

That's exactly what is happening in America today. Now or days, you have to at least a four year degree, be it in Criminal Justice or Underwater Basket Weaving, just to join about 65% of the police forces in America today. That's silly and its placing too much emphasis on an education that means very little in application to the actual job.

I don't know how many people have a college education and not a single one of them work in the field of their education-- even friends with a Master's degree. And I of those that have a standard four year, some are even struggling for work both in the field of their study and in other job markets where a degree, period, is required.

There is a book out now called, "What's wrong with Vocational School?" The answer is: Nothing. Nothing is wrong with it. There is too much emphasis on college these days, which, lets be honest, has seriously turned into a liberal whine factory that often teaches nothing applicable to the degree the student is aspiring to. In New Zealand you don't have to take all of these Humanities course or "Basic Requirement" studies. Instead, you actually train in the field you want to work in, which makes way too much sense to be applied here.

wal-mart pays crap.

Yes, but somebody has to do it. Who would take out the trash if everyone had a college degree? Who would work in the factories if everyone had a degree? What motivation exists without an actual incentive?

The people who run Wal-Mart (forgot the family name, but the five of them together have 100 billion dollars) are super rich.

The Waltons.

The rich execs get, and stay rich, by keeping wages as low as possible.

I don't agree with much of the way Wal-Mart handles its business, especially where they have placed such a large emphasis on the Chinese market that, no doubt, will over take us economically in the next 15 years if we continue in this trend. However, Wal-Mart, as a corporation, as a business, can't be faulted for the economy when they have learned how to dominate that niche.

You might say, "easy for you to say, you aren't destitute." Well, actually, I am. The corporation I work for is suffering all-time lows due to some setbacks. And I only work strictly commissioned based pay which means that I often don't generate a high enough revenue. That forces me to find menial jobs on occasion, as little as minimum wage. There is no question that the minimum wage in this country is deplorable. The increases only mirrors the average inflation rate, which means, that no one is actually making more money, they are instead just rolling with times.

But even in spite of this there is a real need for this economic status, because without it, the economy would plummet which would send the entire nation into a recession.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by kuresu, posted 02-02-2007 12:07 PM kuresu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 12:55 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 44 (382053)
02-02-2007 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
02-02-2007 9:07 PM


Re: Crash on Fox
I don't see how it does, at least, not for the reasons NJ gave. His assertions that conservative talk radio, of all things, is a place of intelligent and insightful debate open to all viewpoints is laughably ridiculous to anybody who's ever spent any time listening to any of it.

I listen to people like Bill-o when I want a good laugh, and to keep tabs on the made-up reality of conservatives. To stay informed I turn to liberal sources.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2007 9:07 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 44 (382061)
02-03-2007 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
02-02-2007 9:50 PM


Re: Conservative radio
Societies do not work without three classic tiers-- the rich, the middle class, and the poor. That's just a fact.

I love how in economics you can just invent whatever facts are most advantageous at the moment. How convenient!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-02-2007 9:50 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2007 12:40 PM crashfrog has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5670
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 22 of 44 (382125)
02-03-2007 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 12:55 AM


Re: Conservative radio
I love how in economics you can just invent whatever facts are most advantageous at the moment. How convenient!

Can you explain your objection please?


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 12:55 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 12:51 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
docpotato
Member (Idle past 3214 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 23 of 44 (382127)
02-03-2007 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Hyroglyphx
02-02-2007 11:42 AM


Re: Conservative radio
I haven't heard Limbaugh speak in about 8 years. I guess the cities I choose to live in can't stomach him, even amongst conservatives.

1190 in Portland. I forget the time.

I don't think there's a corner of the country where his show doesn't air.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-02-2007 11:42 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2007 1:14 PM docpotato has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 44 (382134)
02-03-2007 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2007 12:40 PM


Re: Conservative radio
I'm sorry, I guess I thought I was clear.

You asserted that the existence of the poor was somehow crucial to the functioning of society for the rest of us.

You didn't, that I could see, provide any evidence for that assertion, which I found entirely consistent with the so-called "science" of economics in general, which as a field has about as much rigor as theology.

Economics makes for convienient arguments because nothing in the field has to be confirmed, just asserted. As you did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2007 12:40 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2007 2:19 PM crashfrog has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5670
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 25 of 44 (382139)
02-03-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by docpotato
02-03-2007 12:45 PM


Re: Conservative radio
1190 in Portland. I forget the time.

Is that AM or FM? I mostly listen to CD's, but if I listen to the radio, its usually 93.1.

I don't think there's a corner of the country where his show doesn't air.

You may be right about that. I still haven't listened to him in many years though.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by docpotato, posted 02-03-2007 12:45 PM docpotato has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5670
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 26 of 44 (382158)
02-03-2007 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 12:51 PM


Re: Conservative radio
You asserted that the existence of the poor was somehow crucial to the functioning of society for the rest of us.

I said that ideally a healthy society has to have its middle class as the largest of the tiers, because that's true. The existence of the poor is simply a reality that will never, ever go away, no matter how hard you try.

You didn't, that I could see, provide any evidence for that assertion, which I found entirely consistent with the so-called "science" of economics in general, which as a field has about as much rigor as theology.

The proof is in the pudding with the catastrophic failure of Marxism, Stalinism, Leninism, and Maoism. The removal of incentives is always the single downfall of all communist-based ideologies. Communism only works in a perfect world where every one can drone on in robotic fashion. When that system breaks down, and it always does, the only way to remove the problem is to get rid of those who do not produce.

Economics makes for convienient arguments because nothing in the field has to be confirmed, just asserted. As you did.

Economics is a very difficult filed to endeavor because there are so many variables introduced. That doesn't mean that arguments can't be made. A profit system is an effective monitoring tool to evaluate the economic progress of a country or a corporation.

By rewarding success and allowing failure to penalize those who make poor business choices, it redirects resources away from the inefficient which forces them to perfect their craft. And because it is competitive, it emphasizes on optimal performance which yields the healthiest economy. You can apply this philosophy in Darwinian terms with the survival of the fittest.

Without competition, there is no incentive. Without incentive, there is no motivation. And that is what fosters most of the poverty and misery-- see Cuba for details. That's what makes the lower class tier larger than the middle and upper class in society, whereas the healthiest economy has an extremely large middle class, and smaller, but equally important upper and lower classes.

I have a friend who details cars for a large auto auction. He does not get payed an hourly wage, but rather, he gets payed 25 dollars for each car that he details. Its genius of this company to do it this way because it fosters incentive to crank up the work production which is not only better for the upper class, but the lower class too. Everybody wins with this model. If they payed him hourly, there is no incentive to work fast, which slows production. The only real incentive he has is just doing a job well enough not to get fired. But paying him per car ensures that he's motivated to get more cars detailed. Now, in the event that he's going too fast where his performance is starting to suffer, by getting too greedy, he is deducted 10 dollars. So now, not only does he have an incentive to do the cars fast, but he also has an incentive to do a good job detailing them.

This is a classic analogy for capitalism and why it works for out best for everyone in that society. The reality is that no human system can achieve heaven on earth-- though so many have tried and just turned it into hell on earth instead. But capitalism is the most pragmatic approach to an insoluble dilemma.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 12:51 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 3:05 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 44 (382165)
02-03-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2007 2:19 PM


Re: Conservative radio
I said that ideally a healthy society has to have its middle class as the largest of the tiers, because that's true. The existence of the poor is simply a reality that will never, ever go away, no matter how hard you try.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that who's middle class and who's poor is a subject for considerable sociological debate (what do those terms even mean), asserting that the "poor will always be with us" is, again, another one of those completely made-up economic "facts" that so conveniently seem to materialize out of thin air to shore up your political ideology.

The proof is in the pudding with the catastrophic failure of Marxism, Stalinism, Leninism, and Maoism.

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

I'm not saying that solving the problem of poverty isn't hard, but clearly it's not impossible - countries like Sweden and Denmark have made great steps in ameliorating conditions of poverty.

Are there always going to be people who don't have a lot of money? Sure, I think that's true. But will that condition always lead to homelessness and starvation? I don't see that it has to.

You can apply this philosophy in Darwinian terms with the survival of the fittest.

Yes. But are we, as human beings, going to tell someone that they have to fuck off and die because the all-powerful market has determined that the product of their labor isn't worth enough?

I see that as an inherently evil system.

So now, not only does he have an incentive to do the cars fast, but he also has an incentive to do a good job detailing them.

How long does it take him to detail a car? 25 bucks sounds like he's getting screwed. I assume this is skilled labor?

This is a classic analogy for capitalism and why it works for out best for everyone in that society.

It doesn't sound like it works very well for your friend. It sounds like it works great for his employers, because they get to circumvent minimum-wage laws and other legal worker protections.

But I don't really see what this has to do with your OP.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2007 2:19 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 4:46 PM crashfrog has not yet responded
 Message 29 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2007 7:27 PM crashfrog has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30986
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 28 of 44 (382175)
02-03-2007 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 3:05 PM


Re: Conservative radio
Ignoring the fact that Nemesis is just once again trying to move folk off topic to hide the fact he cannot support his OP...

when he says:

The existence of the poor is simply a reality that will never, ever go away, no matter how hard you try.

I would like to point out that not ALL Christians believe that is true or in anyway acceptable. The ONE Episcopalian program hopes to make poverty history.

St. Paul said, "Fight the Good Fight." We were not told to fight only those fights where you are assured of victory, but rather to try to do what is RIGHT.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 3:05 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2007 7:34 PM jar has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5670
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 29 of 44 (382207)
02-03-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
02-03-2007 3:05 PM


Re: Conservative radio
Ignoring for a moment the fact that who's middle class and who's poor is a subject for considerable sociological debate

Granted. Your point is duly noted.

(what do those terms even mean), asserting that the "poor will always be with us" is, again, another one of those completely made-up economic "facts" that so conveniently seem to materialize out of thin air to shore up your political ideology.

If you can name me one political/economic institution that successfully eradicated poverty, or name me one civilization that has achieved this, I will gladly concede.

I'm not saying that solving the problem of poverty isn't hard, but clearly it's not impossible - countries like Sweden and Denmark have made great steps in ameliorating conditions of poverty.

The enticement of socialized programs like socialized healthcare and welfare is that provides for us the appearance of an expedient system with long lasting goals. Usually, for about the first 5 to 15 years, citizens enjoy a great time of prosperity under the plan. But the bubble always bursts because need always beats out the alloted costs. And in the event of a war or a natural disaster, those funds that are supposed to be going to health care will gobbled up, sending the system in a downward spiral. It doesn't need any help with that as it is, because people are already on long waiting lists to receive care.

Plus, why spend upwards of fifty percent of your paycheck to pay for things you likely won't need when you could just pay a small monthly premium that will pay for more in the long run and grant you access to critical care immediately?

Each country that has tried it now suffers many setbacks and many unanticipated challenges. The articles I'm going to present is specified to health care, but it elucidates the premise.

United Kingdom

European Union

Canada

New Zealand

Australia

Having said that, I in no way am in full support of the current methodology in the United States, especially not the HMO system. I'm interested in purchasing a book by Dr. David Gratzer, called, The Cure". I'm interested to read what he has to say about the whole matter, especially since he has personally critiqued both the Canadian and US health care systems.

Are there always going to be people who don't have a lot of money? Sure, I think that's true. But will that condition always lead to homelessness and starvation? I don't see that it has to.

No, no, no, I'm not talking about the starving homeless, I'm speaking about people who are considered, economically, just above the poverty line or the lower middle class.

But are we, as human beings, going to tell someone that they have to fuck off and die because the all-powerful market has determined that the product of their labor isn't worth enough?

No, I'm simply saying that the poor will always exist, though they should certainly aspire to at least the middle class. But, from solely an economic point of view, without injecting any kind of emotion in it, the three classes serve a purpose for the overall survival of the economy. By focusing on only the poor by socializing everything, that very system that is desgined to bring people out of poverty, inevitably drags every one into poverty. We've seen that over and over again with the failures of Communism.

I see that as an inherently evil system.

So do Communists. But history serves to show who the real devil is-- them.

How long does it take him to detail a car? 25 bucks sounds like he's getting screwed.

It depends on the condition of the car. Some of the cars are repossessed but were not well-maintained, which takes about fifteen minutes from start to finish. Other cars are fairly new and were taken care of which is a five minute touch-up. We'll just average that at 10 minutes per car, for 7 hours a day, so as to not include a lunch break.

I assume this is skilled labor?

Not really. They're just detailing cars. Things like HVAC, plumbers, carpenters and electricians are considered skilled labor.

It doesn't sound like it works very well for your friend. It sounds like it works great for his employers, because they get to circumvent minimum-wage laws and other legal worker protections.

What do you mean? They are payed much, much higher than minimum wage. The employer could hire for minimum wage, and save money that way, but production might be much slower because there is no real incentive to work hard, only the fear of not working hard enough because they'll get fired. In which case, the employer ends up losing more money in the long run.

But I don't really see what this has to do with your OP.

I don't either. One tangent leads to another.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 3:05 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2007 9:48 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5670
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 30 of 44 (382209)
02-03-2007 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
02-03-2007 4:46 PM


Re: Conservative radio
Ignoring the fact that Nemesis is just once again trying to move folk off topic to hide the fact he cannot support his OP

quote:
The existence of the poor is simply a reality that will never, ever go away, no matter how hard you try.

I would like to point out that not ALL Christians believe that is true or in anyway acceptable. The ONE Episcopalian program hopes to make poverty history.

St. Paul said, "Fight the Good Fight." We were not told to fight only those fights where you are assured of victory, but rather to try to do what is RIGHT.

"Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages. "He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

"Leave her alone," Jesus replied. " It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me." -John 12:4-8


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 4:46 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 02-03-2007 7:47 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Prev1
2
3Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019