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Author Topic:   Violent propaganda
jar
Member
Posts: 31619
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 91 of 135 (204723)
05-03-2005 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tal
05-03-2005 4:30 PM


Re: On responses and reaction to terrorism
As to your laundry list in IRAQ, no, of course not. Damn it, we broke everything and now should get credit for fixing them. Laughable.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tal, posted 05-03-2005 4:30 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Tal, posted 05-05-2005 8:12 AM jar has responded

  
mick
Member (Idle past 3300 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 92 of 135 (204763)
05-03-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tal
05-03-2005 4:30 PM


Re: On responses and reaction to terrorism

One practical response to terrorism that has often been successful is for governments of the people targeted by terrorists to negotiate with the terrorists and enter into talks to try to resolve some of the perceived grievances.

Huge Disagree.

Disagree all you like, Tal, but the numbers speak for themselves.

Secret negotiations between the British government and the IRA began in 1993/1994.

Number of deaths related to N.I. sectarian violence in the three years before the start of negotiations: 339

Number of deaths related to N.I. sectarian violence in the last three years: 24

Data from http://www.answers.com/topic/the-troubles

So, over a decade of negotiations, we got a 93% reduction in the number of deaths.

As I said, the numbers speak for themselves. Perhaps a 93% reduction doesn't mean much to somebody like Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger, but it means a lot to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tal, posted 05-03-2005 4:30 PM Tal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by StormWolfx2x, posted 05-04-2005 5:11 AM mick has responded

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 135 (204869)
05-04-2005 4:35 AM


Tal isn't much interested in reality, Mick. As you can see, all his arguments depend on quotes from leaders of large instutions, and invariably ones which have a vested interest.

Whish is why I'd like to ask Tal if any of these great works were paid for with American money? Because as you will no doubt recall, USAID said the considtions in Iraq were so unstable they had only been "able" to spend 2% of their budget up until last year, despite finding ways to spend the entirety of the aid budget allocated by the United Nations.

So, is Tal here claiming credit for spending paid for for by the UN while American money remains in American banks?


Replies to this message:
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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 135 (204875)
05-04-2005 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by mick
05-03-2005 7:38 PM


Re: On responses and reaction to terrorism
I think was tal was saying is more that rewarding individual acts of terror has an overall negative net effect in the long run.

simple example: giving in to all of a bankrobber's demands and letting them get away simply because they have a hostage may be good for that hostage, but probably would lead to copycat crimes and endanger more people.

similarly should we close all abortion clinics because some zealot plants a pipe bomb?

No.

So, over a decade of negotiations, we got a 93% reduction in the number of deaths.

living in america we don't hear very much about the IRA so im not totally informed, but through even some cursory reading of Wikipedia it seems to me that during and before that period there was a decrease in the "terrorist" power and activities of the IRA from the combined decrease in public support for the IRA due to collatoral damage incidents, a crackdown from the british gov arresting IRA members, large numbers of informents, and a mainstream outlet for their ideals (socialism has been increasingly more accepted worldwide after the collapse of the Soveit Union).

Also

Secret negotiations between the British government and the IRA began in 1993/1994

why did you pick those years as the "start of negotiations"

from wikipedia

Gerry Adams was involved in secret talks with SDLP leader John Hume, MP from 1988. The series of contacts, between Adams and Hume, and both with the British and Irish governments provided the groundwork for what was later to be the Belfast Agreement, as well as to the milestone Downing Street Declaration and the Joint Framework Document."

it looks as if there were lots of peace talks in the 70's and 80's if talks are "One practical response to terrorism that has often been successful" why didn't it work earlier? Isn't it more plaussible that other, actually new factors played a larger roll in the change in # of deaths.

heres one (from wikipedia again)

In 1993: Two PIRA bombs at opposite ends of a shopping street in Warrington, timed to go off within minutes of each other, killing two children.....which led to tens of thousands of people descending on O'Connell Street in Dublin to call for an end to the IRA's campaign of violence.

deaths per year according to your source


2004 2 (2)
2003 10 (2)
2002 11 (4)
2001 15
2000 19
1999 8
1998 53
1997 21
1996 17
1995 9
1994 60
1993 84
1992 85
1991 94
1990 76

so deaths in 3 years prior = 255
and deaths in 3 years after = 86

so about a 2/3rds reduction in death, what makes your secret talks more of a factor than massive public outcry?

lastly

where did you get your numbers because it doesn't look like it was from the source you quoted

in no 3 year period on your source do the deaths equal 339
and in the last 3 years the deaths are between 23 and 15 ( numbers in () meaning uncertain if conflict-related).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by mick, posted 05-03-2005 7:38 PM mick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by contracycle, posted 05-04-2005 5:38 AM StormWolfx2x has responded
 Message 96 by mick, posted 05-04-2005 12:27 PM StormWolfx2x has not yet responded

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 135 (204881)
05-04-2005 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by StormWolfx2x
05-04-2005 5:11 AM


Re: On responses and reaction to terrorism
quote:
simple example: giving in to all of a bankrobber's demands and letting them get away simply because they have a hostage may be good for that hostage, but probably would lead to copycat crimes and endanger more people.

Thats reasonable enough, but is that a valid scenario? If people are fighting for their freedom, acceeding to some of their demands shows you are not a tyrant. The dogmatic refusal to even discuss the demands and aims of the violent movement confronting you can only escalate the conflict.

quote:
living in america we don't hear very much about the IRA so im not totally informed, but through even some cursory reading of Wikipedia it seems to me that during and before that period there was a decrease in the "terrorist" power and activities of the IRA from the combined decrease in public support for the IRA due to collatoral damage incidents, a crackdown from the british gov arresting IRA members, large numbers of informents, and a mainstream outlet for their ideals (socialism has been increasingly more accepted worldwide after the collapse of the Soveit Union).

Ha ha. In the first instance, it is quite remarkable that you hear little about Irish terrorism, becuase after all America was the primary fundraiser for this terrorism, harboured terrorists, and contributed to the murder of British citizens. All of which makes the outcry against terrorism rather hypocritical coming from the US, and al;so why you hear little about that dirty little semi-secret.

Secondly, the reason for the decline in violence was becuase the IRA's political strategy was working. It's political wing, Sinn Fein, stood for and won elections (thus demonstrating the IRA had a genuine constituency) and moves by the British government toward a power-charing agreement. In other words, precisely the mature, negotated strategy that Mick was pointing to. And indeed, that discipline on the IRA side - not for nothing described as the most professional of European terrorist organs - arises in large part from the materialism and political praxis it acquired from its Marxist links and history.

quote:
it looks as if there were lots of peace talks in the 70's and 80's if talks are "One practical response to terrorism that has often been successful" why didn't it work earlier? Isn't it more plaussible that other, actually new factors played a larger roll in the change in # of deaths

First, note that the leader of the SDLP is not the British government.

Second, the reason it did not work earlier was because the public position of the UK was "we do not negotiate with terrorists". The main impediment was a) BritGov coming to the deicsion to negotiate, and b) BritGov backtracking on its unwillingness to negotiate.

At the same time, the British and Us governments were backing the hardline stance of the NAtional Party in South Africa against negotiating with the ANC on exactly the same grounds. I specifically recall Ronald Reagan expressing sympathy for the South African state and its struggle against evil.

Quite clearly, negotiation does work. It does work because the combatants do have grievances that can be met. The main impediment is moralism, and the illingness to keep fighting and dying becuase of the alleged danger of negotiating with terrorists - a danger all the more hypocritical becuase we manifestly do, as states, use the threat of violence to force others to do as we say.

quote:
so about a 2/3rds reduction in death, what makes your secret talks more of a factor than massive public outcry?

What public outcry? You forget, the IRA are the leading edge of a legitimate and broad-based popular concern. While there are concerns about the use of violence, the British Army is after still in occupation, is it not?

What controlled violence is that the IRA leadership were able to rein in their members becuase they had reason to believe that negotiations were making progress. Throughtout the history of the troubles, the IRA have been quite diligent in trying to de-escalate the conflict. That hard-line, no negotiation, no compromise, fanatical position was on the part of the British Government.

{Fixed 1 quote box. - AM}

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 05-04-2005 12:56 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by StormWolfx2x, posted 05-04-2005 5:11 AM StormWolfx2x has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by StormWolfx2x, posted 05-06-2005 5:17 AM contracycle has not yet responded

  
mick
Member (Idle past 3300 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 96 of 135 (204955)
05-04-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by StormWolfx2x
05-04-2005 5:11 AM


Re: On responses and reaction to terrorism
thanks for this, contracycle beat me to it and gave a reasonable answer to this.

Just to confirm, John Hume isn't a representative of the British government. The negotiations with the British government started with John Major.

As for the numbers, you are right i miscalculated. It took the years from 1990-1993 rather than 1991-1993. But if you calculate the difference between deaths in 1990-3 (inclusive) and deaths in 2001-2004 (inclusive) you get an approximate decline of 88-89%, which is still good!

On a more general point, negotiations with terrorists are often demonized by politicians in public, but just carried out by those same politicians in secret. Sometimes it is even done openly. For example Israel is always calling the PLO a terrorist organization, but has formalised means of negotiation. Same goes for various more-or-less violent guerrilla groups such as FARC, Shining Path, Zapatista, etc, who are all labelled terrorists by the respective governments.

I would be very surprised if the US government and many European governments didn't have informal channels of contact with the fundamentalist groups in Saudi Arabia, which will end up as negotiation sooner or later.


This message is a reply to:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3991 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 97 of 135 (205186)
05-05-2005 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by contracycle
05-04-2005 4:35 AM


So, is Tal here claiming credit for spending paid for for by the UN while American money remains in American banks?

Source?

Here's mine...MNFI Humanitarian Website]

Now, and I hate to keep using the "I was there" reason, but I spent the last 2 months working for the Chief, Econimics Effects Branch, MNFI. Now alot of projects are on hold for various reasons, most of them have to do with local politics (contrary to what you hear on the news, most of Iraq is not in the state of chaos that the news portrays it to be). However, ALOT of money has been spent. I don't recall any of it being from the U.N. I personally handled a 40million dollar check from General Nashabondai(sp?) to the Chief EEB.

But lets look at what was spent in 03/04 from my quote earlier.

Awarded $1.3 million in small grants to support Iraqi NGO healthcare efforts throughout Iraq.

Facilities and Supplies
Awarded 627 grants worth more than $6 million to rehabilitate schools and equip Directorates General

Contributed cash and food aid totaling $425 million to WFP's emergency operations immediately following the conflict, making the United States the foremost contributor to WFP emergency operations in Iraq.

Awarded $16.7 million to government agencies and civil society organizations to enable municipal authorities to deliver core municipal services.

Committed $2.4 million to support the CPA's nationwide Civic Education Campaign, which facilitates dialogue and increases democracy awareness.

CAP has committed $51 million for 1,397 community projects across Iraq; 976 projects have already been completed. *Figures from back in 03...so lets assume more have been completed.

A total of $6.2 million, which was supplied by the ministry, has been earmarked for the Fallujah General Hospital and medical clinic renovations in and around the city.

The Ministry of Health has also recently allocated $40 million for a new general hospital in Fallujah.

Now, before you bring up the google news from back in 2004 let me pre-counter them with this:

Equation for Iraq: 2,000 Projects = Progress
Wednesday, March 16, 2005

STORIES ARCHIVE BACKGROUND LINKS
•Japan to Release $97 Million in Iraq Aid•Rebuilding Iraq•Congress OKs WH Plan to Shift Iraq Money

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Stories of homicide bombers or kidnappers get most of the news headlines out of Iraq (search) but U.S. officials working in the country want Americans to think about other things when they mull the millions of tax dollars spent there.

U.S. and Iraqi workers are joining to complete 2,000 projects funded by U.S. taxpayers, which Charlie Hess said is a sign of "good progress ... for their kids."

Local Iraqis "want clean water … adequate and decent homes, good schools and quality of life,” Hess, who is the director of the Project and Contracting Office, said.

According to its Web site, the Project and Contracting Office aims to "serve the people of the United States and Iraq by contracting for and delivering services, supplies and infrastructure identified within the Iraqi Relief and Reconstruction Fund, a total $18.4 billion in resources allocated by the U.S. government and taxpaying public for the rebuilding of Iraq."

In Baghdad, workers are erecting hospital, and in Kurdistan, Americans and Iraqis have come together to construct a $10 million electricity substation that will supply power to thousands of homes.

"It's wonderful to see all the Iraqi workers that are here working on a very important project," U.S. Gen. Thomas Bostick (search), who is charged with overseeing reconstruction in all of Iraq, said. "For the city, it's a very powerful message."

Fox

This message has been edited by Tal, 05-05-2005 07:44 AM


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by contracycle, posted 05-04-2005 4:35 AM contracycle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3991 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 98 of 135 (205187)
05-05-2005 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Tal
05-05-2005 7:44 AM


Here is a good site if you would like to keep up with what is going on reconstruction-wise in Iraq.

Rebuilding Iraq.net

I would like to highlight.

Ongoing Work As of: 5/04/05
IRRF Construction Starts: 1,978
AIRP Construction Starts: 355

Total Construction Starts: 2333
Work in Place $2.06 Billion
# of Iraqi Workers: 40,087
Obligated Funds: $8.64 Billion


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Tal, posted 05-05-2005 7:44 AM Tal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by contracycle, posted 05-05-2005 7:52 AM Tal has responded

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 135 (205190)
05-05-2005 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tal
05-05-2005 7:46 AM


You're not answering the question.

Is the money being spent that provided by the US, or by the UN? Can you tell me what proportion of the funds allocated by congress have been spent?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tal, posted 05-05-2005 7:46 AM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Tal, posted 05-05-2005 8:04 AM contracycle has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3991 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 100 of 135 (205194)
05-05-2005 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by contracycle
05-05-2005 7:52 AM


The US.

I can't find where the UN has spent ANY money on Iraq. They've been good at trying to audit though.

So answer your own question. How much has the UN spent?

So first, you guys are saying that we haven't spent any money on reconstruction. Now that I show you we have, you suddenly think the UN is funding the whole thing?

Tisk.

This message has been edited by Tal, 05-05-2005 08:10 AM


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by contracycle, posted 05-05-2005 7:52 AM contracycle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by contracycle, posted 05-05-2005 8:30 AM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3991 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 101 of 135 (205196)
05-05-2005 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
05-03-2005 4:50 PM


Re: On responses and reaction to terrorism
Sorry, we didn't break everything. Good generalization though. Do you have any facts on the infrastructure Coalition forces destroyed as opposed to what we've rebuilt? Or just broad, sweeping statments with no substance?


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 05-03-2005 4:50 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by contracycle, posted 05-05-2005 8:27 AM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 115 by jar, posted 05-05-2005 9:31 AM Tal has not yet responded

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 135 (205199)
05-05-2005 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tal
05-05-2005 8:12 AM


Re: On responses and reaction to terrorism
quote:
Do you have any facts on the infrastructure Coalition forces destroyed as opposed to what we've rebuilt?

Lol. Erm, if you REbuilt it, then presumably you destroyed it. "as opposed" is meaningless. And besides, its not as if Iraqi's actually own these reconstructions, mostly American companies own them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Tal, posted 05-05-2005 8:12 AM Tal has not yet responded

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 135 (205200)
05-05-2005 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Tal
05-05-2005 8:04 AM


quote:

The US. I can't find where the UN has spent ANY money on Iraq. They've been good at trying to audit though.

Man you must be able to get really good weed over there.

quote:
So first, you guys are saying that we haven't spent any money on reconstruction. Now that I show you we have, you suddenly think the UN is funding the whole thing?

No, YOUR GOVERNMENT said that it had NOT been able to spend more than 2% of the congress allocation; but ALSO that it had received reconstruction monies from the UN, and that all of those monies had been spent.

I'm trying to find a link on this now, but I posted one before, the last time this matter was discussed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Tal, posted 05-05-2005 8:04 AM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by contracycle, posted 05-05-2005 8:36 AM contracycle has responded
 Message 106 by Tal, posted 05-05-2005 8:43 AM contracycle has responded

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 135 (205201)
05-05-2005 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by contracycle
05-05-2005 8:30 AM


Heres one:
quote:

US Lacks Records for Iraq Spending
By Matt Kelley
Associated Press
July 29, 2004

U.S. civilian authorities in Baghdad failed to keep good track of nearly $1 billion in Iraqi money spent for reconstruction projects and can't produce records to show whether they got some services and products they paid for, anew audit concludes.

The former Coalition Provisional Authority paid nearly $200,000 for 15 police trucks without confirming they were delivered, and auditors have not located them, the report from the CPA's Inspector General said. Officials also didn't have records to justify the $24.7 million pricetag for replacing Iraqi currency which used to carry Saddam Hussein's portrait, the report said. The report, released in Iraq late Wednesday, is the first formal audit of contracting procedures under the CPA, which oversaw billions in reconstruction spending that critics say was doled out without proper controls. The agency's defenders say it did the best it could given the pressure of operating in a war zone and trying to get reconstruction going quickly.

The one-star general overseeing reconstruction contracts in Iraq said in response to the audit that the lack of documentation didn't prove the money was wasted. "We believe the contracts awarded with Iraqi funds were for the sole benefit of the Iraqi people, without exception," Army Brig. Gen. Stephen M. Seay wrote to the inspector general.

The Coalition Provisional Authority ran Iraq from May of 2003 until the United States handed over power to an interim Iraqi government June 28. The CPA used seized funds from Saddam's government and oil revenues to pay for 1,928 contracts worth about $847 million, the inspector general's report said. A CPA rule issued last August called for following international law and United Nations regulations while spending Iraqi money. But the CPA did not issue standard operating procedures or develop effective contract review, monitoring and evaluation, the report said.


More here: http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/dfi/2004/0729usspending.htm

Now, above, you specifically mentioned the replacement of the Iraqi currency. Yet here we see, that replacement was not only paid for by Iraq, but also, that there are doubts about the honesty of the contracting. So, this is defintely a case of you claiming credit on behalf of the US for things paid for by Iraqi's themselves.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by contracycle, posted 05-05-2005 8:30 AM contracycle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Tal, posted 05-05-2005 8:42 AM contracycle has responded
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Tal
Member (Idle past 3991 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 105 of 135 (205203)
05-05-2005 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by contracycle
05-05-2005 8:36 AM


July 29, 2004

You'll recall I said in post 97

Now, before you bring up the google news from back in 2004 let me pre-counter them with this:

So I already countered your post before you posted it. That tells me you don't really read what I post, you just do a quick google to find anything you can that appears bolster your argument.

But I'll repost.

Equation for Iraq: 2,000 Projects = Progress
Wednesday, March 16, 2005
STORIES ARCHIVE BACKGROUND LINKS
•Japan to Release $97 Million in Iraq Aid•Rebuilding Iraq•Congress OKs WH Plan to Shift Iraq Money

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Stories of homicide bombers or kidnappers get most of the news headlines out of Iraq (search) but U.S. officials working in the country want Americans to think about other things when they mull the millions of tax dollars spent there.

U.S. and Iraqi workers are joining to complete 2,000 projects funded by U.S. taxpayers, which Charlie Hess said is a sign of "good progress ... for their kids."

Local Iraqis "want clean water … adequate and decent homes, good schools and quality of life,” Hess, who is the director of the Project and Contracting Office, said.

According to its Web site, the Project and Contracting Office aims to "serve the people of the United States and Iraq by contracting for and delivering services, supplies and infrastructure identified within the Iraqi Relief and Reconstruction Fund, a total $18.4 billion in resources allocated by the U.S. government and taxpaying public for the rebuilding of Iraq."

In Baghdad, workers are erecting hospital, and in Kurdistan, Americans and Iraqis have come together to construct a $10 million electricity substation that will supply power to thousands of homes.

"It's wonderful to see all the Iraqi workers that are here working on a very important project," U.S. Gen. Thomas Bostick (search), who is charged with overseeing reconstruction in all of Iraq, said. "For the city, it's a very powerful message."

Now, do you have something more recent? And that article you quoted still doesn't say the UN has spent 1 Euro on anything.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by contracycle, posted 05-05-2005 8:36 AM contracycle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by contracycle, posted 05-05-2005 9:42 AM Tal has responded

  
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