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Author Topic:   Help Lizard Breath Save Bush from Hurricane Katrina
Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 150 of 205 (242765)
09-12-2005 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Silent H
09-11-2005 2:25 PM


Re: LB, Monk, Tal, and other Bush defenders
Hi Holmes,
Been away for awhile and haven’t had a chance to respond.
Holmes writes:
1) The timelines which have been provided (both by me and Pearl) which show a lot of inaction by Bush during the time of "gathering threat" by Katrina.
2) The facts (by jar and others) that FEMA had good knowledge of what could happen, and was likely happening, and in fact happening... where was Bush's concern in this?
I doubt that Bush was overly concerned about this any more than he would be concerned about earthquakes in California or another major terror attack on US soil. These are all “concerns” that presidents have.
There is a large list of potential disasters that could occupy a good measure of the president’s efforts and time. I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask whether Bush should have thought more about New Orleans over what could happen in other specific cities around the country. He is not clairvoyant. He delegates that responsibility (evacuation planning) to state and local officials working in concert with Homeland Security and FEMA.
I don’t hold Bush responsible for preventing an act of nature. And I don’t blame Bush for not spending billions in south Louisiana to upgrade the levees or restore the wetlands. I don’t believe any single person is responsible for that. It’s the nature of politics. Without a major vocal champion to fight for the project in Washington, it wasn’t going to happen. I’ve discussed this in the Katrina thread regarding the politics of pushing a multi-billion dollar project in south Louisiana. Message 142
But I do hold Bush responsible for the reaction to the event.
Yes, Governor Blanco was indecisive and yes Mayor Nagin made some key mistakes, there is plenty of blame to throw around as I've posted Message 39. They were the first responders from a governmental standpoint and they failed their responsibilities.
So then working up the chain of command, FEMA and Mike Brown should have seen the confusion between state and local officials and stepped in. Bush declared a state of emergency before Katrina hit, so at that point FEMA should have been ready to take command. It didn’t happen.
I understand about delegating authority. A good leader must have the ability to do that in order to run any organization. That holds true for the leader of the world’s only superpower as much as it does for any business. Once delegated, the leader, (manager), must step aside and allow the subordinates to do their job. That works great as long as everybody up and down the ladder is on top of their game. You can’t micromanage a large organization otherwise you get the Carter administration.
But at some point, when it is clearly evident that your subordinates are not getting the job done, and the situation turns critical, then a leader must step up to the plate and take charge. Brown couldn’t do it, so Chertoff should have stepped in. Chertoff couldn’t do it so it was up to the President. In this regard, the buck does stop at the top.
When the whole affair looked like a cluster f**k, Bush should have taken control. He didn’t and failed miserably as a result. He looked confused. His support of Brown was ludicrous as was the “reassignment” to Washington. I’m completely disgusted.
Don’t they have TV’s on Air Force One? Wasn’t there anyone on that plane that could possibly discern the gravity of the situation by watching the friggin’ TV?
And we are not speaking of minutes or hours, we are speaking of DAYS. I can understand minutes or hours. But days!!!?
It could have been a defining moment in his presidency, a chance to rise above the mediocre, a chance to show critics they were wrong about him. He could have at least held a news conference and commented on what was going on at the Superdome and the Convention Center.
Throw a bottle of water out of Air Force One as you pass over it. Stop eating cake. Something, anything to help. But no, that didn’t happen and it will define his presidency.
Clinton will always carry Monica with him. Bush will always carry Katrina. He will be lame for the remainder of the term. It’s remotely possible, I suppose, that he could salvage his legacy. But it would take something big to counteract this debacle.
3) The newly revealed facts that key appointees by Bush to FEMA were patently political cronies with little to no expertise in the areas of disaster management.
No doubt about this.
quote:
Last night {Sept 1} on CNN, for example, Brown admitted that FEMA had no idea that the New Orleans Convention Center was a hurricane shelter.
Brown: I will tell you this, though, every person in that convention center, we just learned about that today and so I have directed that we have all the available resources to get to that convention center to make sure that they have the food and water, the medical care that they need.
Paula Zahn: Sir, you're not telling me ” you're not telling me that you just learned that the folks at the convention center didn't have food and water until today, are you? You had no idea that they were completely cut off?
Brown: Paula, the federal government did not even know about the convention center people until today.
FEMA, in other words, knows less about this emergency than anyone with access to a television or the internet.
Source
Stunning, absolutely stunning. How could such an obvious thing be overlooked? Was there no one at FEMA watching the media? Aren’t there thousands of employees at Homeland Security and FEMA. Couldn’t just one of them have spent a little time in front of the tele to see what the world was watching?
And if so, how much trouble would it be for someone to tell Brown during those hours and days? Doesn’t he carry a cell phone? The news is on 24 hours per day for Christ’s sake! How could Brown have not known? C’mon, it simply can’t be possible. But it was. Brown's resignation is a relief.
Let me close this post by circling back to President Bush. Here is a Bush quote from 2000 that rings prophetic. It may be the epitaph on his presidency.
quote:
There was a time, just five years ago, that Bush saw the benefit of an effective FEMA. A month before the 2000 presidential election, then-Gov. Bush said, "I've got to pay the administration a compliment. James Lee Witt of FEMA has done a really good job of working with governors during times of crisis.
But that's the time when you're tested, not only ” it's the time you test your mettle. It's the time to test your heart, when you see people whose lives have been turned upside down. --Governor George W Bush 10/3/2000
Source
Tested and failed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Silent H, posted 09-11-2005 2:25 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by berberry, posted 09-12-2005 11:30 PM Monk has replied
 Message 152 by arachnophilia, posted 09-13-2005 12:06 AM Monk has not replied
 Message 153 by Silent H, posted 09-13-2005 5:41 AM Monk has not replied

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 157 of 205 (242892)
09-13-2005 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by berberry
09-12-2005 11:30 PM


Re: LB, Monk, Tal, and other Bush defenders
but I do blame republicans in general for stopping federal funds for levee maintenance in New Orleans. It costs a few million a year (that's million, not billion) and has been authorized by every president and congress since Johnson. I'm not talking about the multi-billion dollar proposal to upgrade the levees. I'm talking about merely maintaining what had already been built, kinda like we do with interestate bridges. And remember, it wasn't the blow that flooded New Orleans. It was the breach in the levees that occurred after the brunt of the storm had passed. Had the levee been properly maintained it's quite likely that it would have held.
The Orleans Levee District is responsible for the maintenance of 129 miles of levees and floodwalls, 190 floodgates, 100 flood valves, and two flood control structures. It is not the politicians in Washington who provide funding for routine levee maintenance. The District is funded primarily by two millages: 5.46 mills authorized in the Louisiana Constitution and 6.44 mills authorized in a general election.
Funding for the levee is only partially from fed funds via the USACE, the balance is through state and local mill levies,(taxes). Cutting USACE funding would only affect a portion of the overall Orleans Levee budget.
The estimated $70 million shortfall certainly had an impact on several projects. But, that amount would not be nearly enough to provide the final funding necessary to solve New Orleans flood issues.
Even a properly maintained Cat 3 levee system will not withstand Cat 4 or 5 force. There is no evidence to suggest proper maintenance of the Cat 3 levee system would have made any difference in this storm.
Confusion had nothing to do with it. Once a federal emergency declaration had been requested and granted, FEMA was in charge. Not "ready to take command" but "in command". That's the way disaster management is supposed to work.
There are two official declarations that can be made by the President in times of emergency. One is a general state of emergency and the other is a major disaster. Before the storm hit on August 27, the President declared a “state of emergency”. This action released federal resources from FEMA to “help” meet immediate life-saving and life-sustaining human needs and protect property in addition to other emergency protective measures. Debris removal and emergency services are provided to assist law enforcement with evacuations and establish shelters.
quote:
It's always the state's call. The state tells what kind of help they need. We don't come in and take over," said Philip Clark, spokesman for FEMA's Region III which includes Washington, D.C., Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia. "The Congress assumes responsibility begins at the local level and moves up. Congress didn't mean for FEMA to come in to every disaster. Source
This “state of emergency” action is more of a supportive role to state and local governments. It is not a declaration of martial law or federalization of the entire situation. It was at this point that FEMA should have been ready to take over should a major disaster be declared.
On Monday August 29, the President declared a “major disaster”. This IS the declaration that gave FEMA the authority to take over from local and state authorities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by berberry, posted 09-12-2005 11:30 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 09-13-2005 10:26 AM Monk has replied
 Message 161 by berberry, posted 09-13-2005 10:46 AM Monk has replied

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 158 of 205 (242895)
09-13-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by nator
09-13-2005 9:15 AM


Re: LB, Monk, Tal, and other Bush defenders
The thing is, Carter was always a very good man, who was taught and lived a good value system which emphasized helping people, always doing one's best, and making a real difference through public service.
That may all be true, but my point was in regard to his management style and his lack of the ability to delegate authority without keeping intimately involved. In other words, micro management. If taken to extremes, this can cause as many problems as the "hands off" management style employed by Bush.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by nator, posted 09-13-2005 9:15 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by nator, posted 09-13-2005 4:07 PM Monk has not replied

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 160 of 205 (242912)
09-13-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by jar
09-13-2005 10:26 AM


Re: LB, Monk, Tal, and other Bush defenders
Would you agree that at least since the 2000 study, the results of a Cat 4 or Cat 5 Hurricane making landfall on or just to the east of New Orleans should have been clear to Federal Emergency folk?
Yes, but again it’s just one of many potential disasters that could occur. We can all sit back with hindsight and say this event should have been the top priority. But why? Why should this have been more important than any number of other major disasters that could occur? Take for example a Cat 4 or 5 storm hitting Houston:
quote:
A landfall here would allow its powerful upper-right quadrant, where the waves move in the same direction as the storm, to overflow Galveston Bay. Within an hour or two, a storm surge, topping out at 20 feet or more, would flood the homes of 600,000 people in Harris County. The surge also would block the natural drainage of flooded inland bayous and streams for a day or more.
Coastal residents who ignored warnings to flee would have no hope of escape as waters swelled and winds roiled around their homes. Very likely, hundreds, perhaps even thousands, would die.
Source
I’m sure Federal Emergency folk were aware of the New Orleans disaster scenario as they are aware of Houston and many others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 09-13-2005 10:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by jar, posted 09-13-2005 11:11 AM Monk has replied

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 163 of 205 (242929)
09-13-2005 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by berberry
09-13-2005 10:46 AM


Re: LB, Monk, Tal, and other Bush defenders
The republicans somehow manage to find many, many more millions to build bridges to nowhere in Alaska but they can't spare $70 million to maintain a levee system in a crucial port city of over a million people.
Maybe so. Reps and Dems both like to spend millions. Who in Congress doesn’t? But I still must return to the point. I don’t hold Republicans responsible because it would not have made any difference.
Even a properly maintained Cat 3 levee system will not withstand Cat 4 or 5 force. There is no evidence to suggest proper maintenance of the Cat 3 levee system would have made any difference in this storm.
Unless this is just an FYI I don't see your point.
My point is to counter accusations that FEMA should have taken control over state and local officials prior to the storm. These arguments are not valid because FEMA didn’t have authority to do so. The President declared a “state of emergency” on Saturday. This is authority to help, not command. At the time, this course of action seemed appropriate because this was before the ineptitude of the Governor and the Mayor became apparent.
Once the President declared a “major disaster” on Monday, then FEMA should have stepped up to the plate.
Between Saturday and Monday, FEMA was in a supportive role. If you recall, immediately after the storm and prior to the levee breach, the destruction in NOLA was not that severe. Despite mounting problems at the Dome and Convention Center, FEMA’s role at this point was to help by taking directions from state and local officials.
It wasn’t until late Monday or Tuesday that the real disaster began with the levee breach. On Monday, the President declared a “major disaster” and that’s when FEMA and that idiot Brown should have been in charge. That’s what a “major disaster” declaration is all about. It assumes state and local authority has collapsed.
Up until this point IMO, the President had done his job.
I have a higher opinion of you than I do of most conservatives.
Thanks berb. I assume your opinion is based on more than my trashing Bush upthread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by berberry, posted 09-13-2005 10:46 AM berberry has not replied

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 164 of 205 (242949)
09-13-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by jar
09-13-2005 11:11 AM


Re: LB, Monk, Tal, and other Bush defenders
All of these could be done in advance and would be general in nature. If you have a list of military base housing that could be used, it does not matter if the refugees are coming from Houston, New Orleans, LA or Mobile.
Yes, that's all true. And I'm sure plans are in place that cover the topics you raise. The problem, of course, is that a plan is only effective if it is implemented.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by jar, posted 09-13-2005 11:11 AM jar has not replied

  
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