quote:
In any group of democrats, there will be some who are futher left than others. The fact that you can't or won't name any is why you are so extreme in your position.
But I already did.
I said that Kennedy and Pelosi were more liberal that the rest of the group you listed, and that Dean wasn't liberal at all, but a centrist, and that Clinton was a moderate.
But anyway, you are seemingly purposefully entrenched in this misguided notion that I have ever been talking about legislators' conservativeness or liberalness
relative to each other.
That's where you go wrong and even though I have explained that you are missing the point, you persist in refusing to get the point.
Monk, I explained this to you already.
I am NOT talking about how liberal or consrevative people are
relative to each other.
I have NEVER been talking about how liberal or conservative legislators are
relative to each other.
I am talking about how liberal or conservative legislators are
over the entire political spectrum.
The
entire political spectrum doesn't change. It is not affected by trends, or by changes in human perception. It uses precise definitions that do not change no matter how the conservative talk radio hosts misuse them.
As my first illustration, I will repost my Barry Goldwater quote.
"However, on religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism.' "Congressional Record, September 16, 1981
He also said this:
And here we encounter the seeds of government disaster and collapse -- the kind that wrecked ancient Rome and every other civilization that allowed a sociopolitical monster called the welfare state to exist.
Now, was Barry Goldwater a liberal or a conservative?
He was a conservative. A
very conservative conservative.
A traditional conservative who also rejected the influence of the religious right, believed that government should stay out of the morals business, and believed in smaller government and individual rights.
Do the NeoCons adhere to traditional conservative values such as these?
Or, are they even farther to the right than Barry Goldwater, heading over into authoritarian, Fascist and
laissez fair land, as they believe in a lot of centralized government power, unfettered business and strong business and governmental ties, and government-determined morality enforced by law?
I used this next example before, but it's worth repeating.
Socialists or Marxists are at the "extreme left" of the political spectrum, according to pretty much all the sources I could find. Likewise, for "extreme right" it generally lists "fascist" or "authoritarian" or "totalitarian".
I do not think that we see much evidence of Democrats espousing or advocating for Socialism or Marxism.
If you think they are espousing or advocating for these philosophies, please priovide specific examples.
OTOH, I believe I have provided quite a few examples of current NeoCon lawmakers who are quite far to the right of even Godwater and who's actions and votes show a trend away from traditional conservatism and towards authoritarianism.
So, as I have asked you at least 7 times now.
Who are these "extreme left" people in our government?
Please provide examples of the extremist votes or statements of belief.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-30-2005 09:00 AM
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