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Author Topic:   The Current Global Recession
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2599 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 31 of 49 (502417)
03-11-2009 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
03-11-2009 1:13 PM


what's so hard to understand? This is basic economics, really. Your raving about how bad everything is with police, schools, the judiciary, and all that other stuff is just that: raving disconnected from reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 03-11-2009 1:13 PM Jon has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 32 of 49 (502422)
03-11-2009 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jazzns
03-11-2009 11:50 AM


Re: Bad Analogy
That is a terrible analogy.
It was intended more as a joke, but I agree, if it was taken as an analogy it fails to make a point.
...and apparently it failed as a joke too.
We ARE the government.
In theory, yes.
If the government is not successful, we are not successful.
The government seems to always succeed, at their true job, which is to maintain control and keep the public disinformed.
But the problem is that no matter what you say, we still have to pay for the mistakes that we made like it or not.
I know, it seems like we agree on the terms of the "contract"* but we differ in our opinions on how the matter should be dealt with.
*The contract being that citizens are always held responsible for the actions and mistakes of their appointed officials.
If you listen closely, to people who actually matter rather than talking-heads, almost NOBODY thinks that we should be cutting back spending during a recession. Even Republicans, as much as they rail against "spending", are proposing spending to solve the problem as well. They just don't call it "spending", they call it "tax cuts".
Yes, but do we trust the very system that has contiuously failed and put us in this predicament to begin with?
They will continue to do as they please as long as they know that "we still have to pay for the mistakes that (they) made like it or not"...and that is my whole point.
As long as the risk is not theirs to bear it will always make sense in their opinion to spend more, but only when the money to spend more comes from us.
But I do agree with you, if we take what "those that actually matter" are saying at face value, spending more seems like the only option. Lets hope though that "those that actually matter" are telling the trust as they see it, and not as they've been told to see it.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 33 of 49 (502435)
03-11-2009 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by kuresu
03-11-2009 12:23 PM


Why can no one actually bring up anything concrete?
Because the information is never that easy to attain.
Of course all of the good shit our government does is accountable for, and the bad things we do hear about are only what they allow to be distributed in the media outlets. It takes years for underground shit to surface, even our own government doesn't know what the government is doing nor can they account for their own spending. Now you put the onus on us to bring the information of the corruption within our government to light? Please kuresu. The system is set up to not allow for such things to surface, nor do any of us actually have the time to do it, again, this is part of the disinformation agenda that is enforced by our government.
Like I wrote in my previous post, if we take everything that is said from both sides of the dem/repub camp, you are right, or rather they are right in what they say needs to be done and you are correct in repeating it. The problem is that the system has created such descention that some of us NO LONGER take what they say at face value and have no trust in the media outlets that are conveying the information to us.
If you really think that our tax dollars do no good, I suggest you check out what life is like in failed states, where there is no functioning government.
So don't complain, it could be worse?
It's a good thing those counrties exist that way we can always be Scared Straight when we think about complaining.
People rail against taxes, and how the money is spent, without realizing that without taxes we would be in anarchy, and they overestimate the actual amount of graft that happens.
Yes, and without a job you don't eat. However, if you walked into your job everyday and the smacked you in the mouth before work, at what point do you think you'd stop giving a shit about food, and stand up to the shit thats being done to you?
- Oni

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by kuresu, posted 03-11-2009 12:23 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by kuresu, posted 03-11-2009 2:11 PM onifre has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2599 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 34 of 49 (502440)
03-11-2009 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by onifre
03-11-2009 1:49 PM


Because the information is never that easy to attain.
Really? The budget, and all spending is a matter of public record.
Here's the budget for fiscal year 2009. I'm sure your library can access a paper copy of the budget if you want.
Here's the omnibus spending bill.
This information is available readily. All it took was a 15 second search on google. I guess it's easier to claim that the information is hidden and not even try searching for it.
So, point out just how much is wasteful spending, sheer corruption, or such. It's there for you.
So don't complain, it could be worse?
It's a good thing those counrties exist that way we can always be Scared Straight when we think about complaining.

Did I say don't complain? Hardly. When people like Jon suggest that our tax dollars do no good, it's helpful to give them an example of anarchy. Anarchy is a very bad consequence of shutting down government, which is what would happen if the government truly did have no method of raising revenue. So the hint is not to complain, but to think through your statements. Tax dollars actually do some good. That was the point of bringing up Somalia. You can complain all you want. But you still need to pay your taxes. (For an excellent example, I suggest looking at the swedish opinion on taxes: they complain about taxes incessantly, and yet they pay them because they know they wouldn't have the government services they do have without the tax revenue).
Yes, and without a job you don't eat. However, if you walked into your job everyday and the smacked you in the mouth before work, at what point do you think you'd stop giving a shit about food, and stand up to the shit thats being done to you?
I don't know. Ask the slaves. Ask the first strikers. Quite frankly, I don't mind paying 18% of my paycheck in tax, because there is no one smacking me in the mouth every day. Yeah, the financial world screwed us all over. But you know what? Screwing them over in return is going to hurt a lot worse. I don't fancy depressions. Do you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by onifre, posted 03-11-2009 1:49 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by onifre, posted 03-11-2009 3:15 PM kuresu has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 35 of 49 (502452)
03-11-2009 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by kuresu
03-11-2009 2:11 PM


Really? The budget, and all spending is a matter of public record.
Here's the budget for fiscal year 2009. I'm sure your library can access a paper copy of the budget if you want.
Here's the omnibus spending bill.
This information is available readily. All it took was a 15 second search on google. I guess it's easier to claim that the information is hidden and not even try searching for it.
So, point out just how much is wasteful spending, sheer corruption, or such. It's there for you.
I'll concede on the points, because I really don't want to do the research. Again, what has been made available to the public is not of concern to me, what has not been made available is where my concern is.
So, will you agree that we don't know if this information is all the info available, or if they've concealed a lot of it?
Tax dollars actually do some good. That was the point of bringing up Somalia.
I will also conced on this point, taxes do some good.
(For an excellent example, I suggest looking at the swedish opinion on taxes: they complain about taxes incessantly, and yet they pay them because they know they wouldn't have the government services they do have without the tax revenue).
Kuresu, when the alternative is nothing, then anything is good and can be shown to improve lives. I will not pretend to know the Swedish opinion, I will take your word for it, but their concern is probably more with the way it is governed than with the actual paying of the tax itself. I'm speculating. And this would be where I stand as well.
Screwing them over in return is going to hurt a lot worse. I don't fancy depressions. Do you?
Ah, the loaded questions. Of course I don't want a depression. I support the troops too. I love America as well. I like democracy over communism. I want "change". I believe in "hope"....just wanted to answer 'yes' in case these where questions to follow.
The point is not that a depression is worth the risk of anarchy, but we forget that anarchy is a form of fighting tyranny when all else has proven futile.
quote:
Thomas Carlyle who wrote that the French Revolution was a war against both aristocracy and anarchy:
Meanwhile, we will hate Anarchy as Death, which it is; and the things worse than Anarchy shall be hated more! Surely Peace alone is fruitful. Anarchy is destruction: a burning up, say, of Shams and Insupportabilities; but which leaves Vacancy behind. Know this also, that out of a world of Unwise nothing but an Unwisdom can be made. Arrange it, Constitution-build it, sift it through Ballot-Boxes as thou wilt, it is and remains an Unwisdom,-- the new prey of new quacks and unclean things, the latter end of it slightly better than the beginning. Who can bring a wise thing out of men unwise? Not one. And so Vacancy and general Abolition having come for this France, what can Anarchy do more? Let there be Order, were it under the Soldier's Sword; let there be Peace, that the bounty of the Heavens be not spilt; that what of Wisdom they do send us bring fruit in its season!-- It remains to be seen how the quellers of Sansculottism were themselves quelled, and sacred right of Insurrection was blown away by gunpowder: wherewith this singular eventful History called French Revolution ends.
And I don't mean anarchy, as in no governing body, I mean anarchy as in Anarcho-syndicalist:
quote:
Anarcho-syndicalism is a branch of anarchism which focuses on the labour movement. Syndicalisme is a French word meaning "trade unionism" — hence, the "syndicalism" qualification. Anarcho-syndicalists view labour unions as a potential force for revolutionary social change, replacing capitalism and the State with a new society democratically self-managed by workers. Anarcho-syndicalists seek to abolish the wage system, regarding it as "wage slavery" and state or private ownership of the means of production, which they believe lead to class divisions. Not all seek to abolish money per se. Ralph Chaplin states that the ultimate aim of the General Strike as regards wages is to give to each producer the full product of his labor. The demand for better wages becomes revolutionary only when it is coupled with the demand that the exploitation of labor must cease."
The worse part is you got me to openly admit my anarchist ways.
I tried to keep that on the down-low for fear of my government.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by kuresu, posted 03-11-2009 2:11 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by kuresu, posted 03-11-2009 3:36 PM onifre has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2599 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 36 of 49 (502453)
03-11-2009 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by onifre
03-11-2009 3:15 PM


I'll concede on the points, because I really don't want to do the research. Again, what has been made available to the public is not of concern to me, what has not been made available is where my concern is.
And that is your, and dronestar, and jon, and many other's problem lies: not wanting to do the research.
How can you know what the government has made available without research? How can you know what the government has hidden without research? How exactly did Woodward and Bernstein uncover Watergate? How did we uncover any of the numerous actions I'm sure the Bush administration wanted kept quiet? Not by sitting on our duffs and saying "I'm sure the government is lying", but actually researching.
So if you're going to advocate specific policies, make claims, and whatnot, be prepared to actually do the research to support your position. Otherwise, you're really no better than the YECs who are loaded with blanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by onifre, posted 03-11-2009 3:15 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by onifre, posted 03-11-2009 5:20 PM kuresu has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 37 of 49 (502456)
03-11-2009 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by onifre
03-10-2009 7:13 PM


You speak of this debt as if you actually took part in the business of spending it.
In the analogy I was. What I am trying to say is that the last thing you need to do when trying to pay off a debt or get your business back on it's feet is to reduce the amount of money coming in. You want to do just the opposite. Government is the same.
If our government wants more of an investment from it's tax payers this US government needs to show it's tax payers responsibility AND lets not forget accountability as well.
I totally agree, but withholding moneys right now until these changes are actuated is too great a risk, or at least it appears that way.
We are in a recession, in the beginning of a global recession, these are not the times to ask the less fortunate, barely getting by, struggling with their morgages, health care, education, etc, for a raise.
No one is. Taxes will stay the same or will be less for this section of the populace under the current strategy.
Tubes? What tubes? Does anybody know where the tubes are? Whos controling the tubes? Where are the fucking tubes?! - George Carlin
Hehe, a George Carlin reference is always welcome.
The tubes are a much deeper recession, dare I say big depression.
You can make an argument for this and convince many people that you're right, myself included perhaps, but I don't see why we need to pump more money when they have failed with the money they initially had. If we put the horse before cart we see the reality of the situation. They need to prove they can do the job before we invest more.
I believe the apt metaphor is "cut off the nose to spite the face". If we withhold tax money because of past behavior then we guarantee that future behavior will fail.
Just to qualify what I am saying, I am disgusted by how the government has spent money in the past. Don't get me wrong. At least a change in the White House gives us a chance of seeing good reforms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by onifre, posted 03-10-2009 7:13 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by onifre, posted 03-11-2009 5:30 PM Taq has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 38 of 49 (502474)
03-11-2009 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by kuresu
03-11-2009 3:36 PM


How can you know what the government has made available without research?
How can you know what they haven't made available?
How can you know what the government has hidden without research?
Yes I'll get to it as soon as I'm done laughing at people fall off tables on youtube.
Investigate the government? Are you serious?
Using what resources, the internet? Google search? Ask Jeeves?
Come on, kuresu. I do what you do, I wait for a trickle of information to leak out, I just don't trust that it's all of the information.
How did we uncover any of the numerous actions I'm sure the Bush administration wanted kept quiet? Not by sitting on our duffs and saying "I'm sure the government is lying", but actually researching.
Send the thives to investigate the theives and trust the information they give you if you like, kuresu.
So if you're going to advocate specific policies, make claims, and whatnot, be prepared to actually do the research to support your position.
I have conceded on specific policies. The claims I make are of the corruption in the system at it's core level, which is in the control and distribution of information. I cannot present evidence for things where the evidence has been tampered with. Nor do I have the resources to investigate the government. I do what you do, I wait for a trickle of information to leak out, I just don't trust that it's all of the information available. And since the government controls big business, how can I trust the information?
Otherwise, you're really no better than the YECs who are loaded with blanks.
Not bad, but Radical Fundamentalist Muslim would have made more of an impact in delivering that final blow to me.
Let me try.
Otherwise, you are no better than the aristocrats who turned their face at what the Ancien Rgime was doing to the poor for fear of losing your meaningless material things. When material things are given more worth than human lives, all is lost. - How was that?
Edited by onifre, : felt "Ancien Rgime" was sweeter sounding than "french government"
Edited by onifre, : spelling

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by kuresu, posted 03-11-2009 3:36 PM kuresu has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 39 of 49 (502484)
03-11-2009 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taq
03-11-2009 4:13 PM


What I am trying to say is that the last thing you need to do when trying to pay off a debt or get your business back on it's feet is to reduce the amount of money coming in. You want to do just the opposite. Government is the same.
I can agree with that, to a certain extent. But, what do you do when the people running the business continue to fuck it up, no matter what party is in charge? - elect new ones from the same stock?
I totally agree, but withholding moneys right now until these changes are actuated is too great a risk, or at least it appears that way.
Perhaps, you could certainly make a good case for it.
Taxes will stay the same or will be less for this section of the populace under the current strategy.
My use of the word "raise" was wrong, I meant sacrifice. In that particular section, I was wrong though.
If we withhold tax money because of past behavior then we guarantee that future behavior will fail.
There are other alternatives, but I don't want to drive this discussion into a socialism vs. capitalism debate.
At least a change in the White House gives us a chance of seeing good reforms.
Ah, there's that "change" slogan again, lol. Advertising is amazing isn't it?
Joking aside, I hope you are right. Seriously, I mean that.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Taq, posted 03-11-2009 4:13 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-11-2009 6:24 PM onifre has replied
 Message 43 by Taq, posted 03-12-2009 10:54 AM onifre has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 49 (502491)
03-11-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by onifre
03-11-2009 5:30 PM


Hi onifre,
But, what do you do when the people running the business continue to fuck it up, no matter what party is in charge?
Turn your back on them and take care of yourselfs. Oppose the ones whose measures prevent you from doing so.
Otherwise, you're really no better than the YECs who are loaded with blanks.
Not bad, but Radical Fundamentalist Muslim would have made more of an impact in delivering that final blow to me.
Let me try.
Otherwise, you are no better than the aristocrats who turned their face at what the Ancien Rgime was doing to the poor for fear of losing your meaningless material things. When material things are given more worth than human lives, all is lost. - How was that?
That was good. I thought it was funny.
How can you know what the government has hidden without research?
Yes I'll get to it as soon as I'm done laughing at people fall off tables on youtube.
Now that one had me laughing.
It seems like there's so much sarcasm that there's really none at all. I believed that you do what those videos. I laughed because I watch them too.
Oh yeah.... topics.
Joking aside, I hope you are right. Seriously, I mean that.
I hope he's right too. I doubt we're fucked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by onifre, posted 03-11-2009 5:30 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by onifre, posted 03-11-2009 7:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 41 of 49 (502501)
03-11-2009 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by New Cat's Eye
03-11-2009 6:24 PM


Hi onifre,
I believe that's the first time you've ever greeted me. - lol
Sup, Catholic Sci.
Turn your back on them and take care of yourselfs. Oppose the ones whose measures prevent you from doing so.
And that I can agree with 100%. I've just grown a fucking heart lately, trust me I don't like it. I've lived very selfishly for a long while, it's ruined a few things - whatever- I grew a conscience and now I kinda care about others less fortunate too. The funny thing is I really don't have shit either, but more than many.
That was good. I thought it was funny.
Sweet!
Now that one had me laughing.
It seems like there's so much sarcasm that there's really none at all. I believed that you do what those videos. I laughed because I watch them too.
Then you'd love my stand-up bro.
Btw My absolute favorite. I watch it once a day. I just watched it 4 times posting it to you.
I hope he's right too. I doubt we're fucked.
I think we are too smart these days to be "fucked". And too many have too much at stock to let anything too out of control happen. I don't doubt for a minute that the rich are hurting a bit right now, due to excessive living of course, but they got it in control. Obama won, things will be corrected now that plenty have grossly over indulged, and we'll get back to a stable society. Those that were lost, well...sorry?
Whatever we can live with at that point I guess. Those that don't survive the economic low will be replaced by others, and we go round and round. It works, I know that much. Unlike what kuresu may think I do see the functionality of capitalism. It works, period. But at what cost sometimes?
Lately I've been taking issue with the "cost" of doing it this way, it doesn't look great when we reflect on it.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-11-2009 6:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-12-2009 1:36 AM onifre has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 49 (502522)
03-12-2009 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by onifre
03-11-2009 7:01 PM


I believe that's the first time you've ever greeted me. - lol
It happens very rarely....
I usually address the arguments and not the person. I don't greet the person if I'm not addressing them.
Turn your back on them and take care of yourselfs. Oppose the ones whose measures prevent you from doing so.
And that I can agree with 100%. I've just grown a fucking heart lately, trust me I don't like it. I've lived very selfishly for a long while, it's ruined a few things - whatever- I grew a conscience and now I kinda care about others less fortunate too. The funny thing is I really don't have shit either, but more than many.
All I have I got myself (or from my parents), but I have been fortunate. Its not that I lack a heart/conscience; I want to help those who are less fortunate. Its just that I don't want the government and/or legislation to decide for me who I end up helping. Growing up around East St. Louis, I have a certain view on who I think I should be helping and who I shouldn't. A lot of that heartfelt and conscientious stuff ends up hurting people more in the long run.
I just don't like the idea of the gov taxing me more and then deciding who that money goes too when I feel like I can determine those things better myself. And if not really better, at least something that I want. When a person can go into a pharmacy and get free pills that the gov pays for while wearing a bunch of gold jewelry and sporting a fucking $200 hairdo (2nd hand experience), then that there is something seriously and hugely wrong that I don't want to be a part of.
Then you'd love my stand-up bro.
I've seen your myspace page. You are funny. Let me know if you make it to St. Louis.
I think we are too smart these days to be "fucked". And too many have too much at stock to let anything too out of control happen.
It seems so, but I don't think an out-of-control downward spiral is impossible.
I don't doubt for a minute that the rich are hurting a bit right now, due to excessive living of course, but they got it in control.
The people that I've talked to that are hurting are the ones who were a little too irresponsible in the first place. Which really sucks for the people who did all the right things in the first place. The lack of any benefit for them in doing the right thing is more like a punishment.
Obama won, things will be corrected now that plenty have grossly over indulged, and we'll get back to a stable society.
I'm not convinced but I hope to god that I'm wrong.
Those that were lost, well...sorry?
Lost?
Whatever we can live with at that point I guess. Those that don't survive the economic low will be replaced by others, and we go round and round. It works, I know that much. Unlike what kuresu may think I do see the functionality of capitalism. It works, period. But at what cost sometimes?
Lately I've been taking issue with the "cost" of doing it this way, it doesn't look great when we reflect on it.
I'm having trouble seeing between the lines here. Start a new thread so we can hash it out.
Wait, what's the topic here?...
From the OP:
quote:
While it is clear that this is the most severe recession since the depression, is it really so apocolyptic, or is it just that the news media's ability to scare us has improved a great deal since the last severe recession back in the late 1970's (you young'uns under 50 have never experienced a real recession as an adult).
Just wondering what other people think concerning how severe this recession is.
We seem to be on topic enough. I guess you don't have to start a new thread at all. So, what were you on about then?
How are you measuring, or determining what it, the "cost"?
What do you mean by "replaced"?
What about the cost makes it look so non-great?
For the record, I'm a young-un under 50 that has never experienced a real recession as an adult.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by onifre, posted 03-11-2009 7:01 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by onifre, posted 03-13-2009 6:37 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 43 of 49 (502564)
03-12-2009 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by onifre
03-11-2009 5:30 PM


I can agree with that, to a certain extent. But, what do you do when the people running the business continue to fuck it up, no matter what party is in charge? - elect new ones from the same stock?
Perhaps we should let them fuck it up first before voting new one's in.
Ah, there's that "change" slogan again, lol. Advertising is amazing isn't it?
It's not the slogan. When W was elected there was also this same chance, even more of a chance given the std. Republican platform of smaller gov't and lower taxes.
I guess I have reached that age where experience bred cynicism butts heads with youthful optimism. It pisses me off that I actually have "Hope", that I actually am optimistic the next 4 years will differ from the last 8. Or perhaps it is stupidity--doing the same thing over, over, and over and expecting different results.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by onifre, posted 03-11-2009 5:30 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 44 of 49 (502860)
03-13-2009 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by New Cat's Eye
03-12-2009 1:36 AM


I just don't like the idea of the gov taxing me more and then deciding who that money goes too when I feel like I can determine those things better myself. And if not really better, at least something that I want. When a person can go into a pharmacy and get free pills that the gov pays for while wearing a bunch of gold jewelry and sporting a fucking $200 hairdo (2nd hand experience), then that there is something seriously and hugely wrong that I don't want to be a part of.
Couldn't agree more.
It also burns me that the risk is always worth their -( the government)- taking as long as the working class is there to support it with our heavy tax dollars. If shit goes bad just threaten the work force with struggling ecomomies, constantly show them the failing job market and basically send us into a panic so we work harder, longer hours. It's mental slavery.
How are you measuring, or determining what it, the "cost"?
I meant cost as in the cost of doing business this way, not in the literal sense.
In other words, uncontroled and unregulated free markets drive small businesses out. The bigger guy fucks the little guy until there is nothing left BUT the big guy. Which everyone now works for, and is dependant on. Example: mom and pop grocery stores got run out by Walmart. Now everyone works at the Walmart. Now everyone buys at Walmart. Now Walmart controls that market.
If everyone works for this one place, and the entire company goes under -for whatever reason(like with the auto factories closing and such)- who's really fucked? The executives that ran the company? Or the workers and that town?
What do you mean by "replaced"?
I just meant that those who lost their businesses due to the recession get "replaced" by other companies. No one cares about bailing out the small businesses, our money is only going to take care of huge companies where most of the rich have their money invested. What about my friends auto dealer? The indie record store by my house that has been there since I was 10, now they're gone, but we got a Virgin Record Store. I can name a shit load like this, that no government bail out seems to come thier way. No one in our government gives a crap because it doesn't directly affect thier financial wealth, if it did they'd be all over it.
That's the cost of capitalism. Those that get lost along recessions get replaced by the bigger guys who can sustain the recession, until just the bigger guys exist, and control every single market, and our lives.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-12-2009 1:36 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-14-2009 1:06 AM onifre has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 49 (502907)
03-14-2009 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by onifre
03-13-2009 6:37 PM


If shit goes bad just threaten the work force with struggling ecomomies, constantly show them the failing job market and basically send us into a panic so we work harder, longer hours. It's mental slavery.
Like how we've been told how bad of a crisis this is and that we need to pass the bailout right now?
In other words, uncontroled and unregulated free markets drive small businesses out. The bigger guy fucks the little guy until there is nothing left BUT the big guy. Which everyone now works for, and is dependant on. Example: mom and pop grocery stores got run out by Walmart. Now everyone works at the Walmart. Now everyone buys at Walmart. Now Walmart controls that market.
Well, Wal*Mart does have the cheapest shit in town...
No one cares about bailing out the small businesses, our money is only going to take care of huge companies where most of the rich have their money invested. What about my friends auto dealer? The indie record store by my house that has been there since I was 10, now they're gone, but we got a Virgin Record Store. I can name a shit load like this, that no government bail out seems to come thier way. No one in our government gives a crap because it doesn't directly affect thier financial wealth, if it did they'd be all over it.
You know its sad but truuue-ugh!
That's the cost of capitalism. Those that get lost along recessions get replaced by the bigger guys who can sustain the recession, until just the bigger guys exist, and control every single market, and our lives.
We don't have to let them control our lives!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by onifre, posted 03-13-2009 6:37 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by onifre, posted 03-14-2009 10:15 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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