Quick question on the world flood

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Your statement that 'no layering occurred due to a glpobal flood' is an article of faith, Randy. Maybe if you keep saying it, it might come true for you. I'll stick to the evidence rather than rhetoric.
When the dogma of long ages was contructed about 200 years ago, everyone was unaware that neat layering could occur rapidly. Surely, it was thought, these layers represent seasonal variations? No, hydrodynamic sorting can do it in seconds:

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No my statement is based on the facts. All throughout the geologic column there are features that are totally inconsistent with formation during a flood year and many of them have been pointed out to you more than once. Paleontology, biogeography and biodiversity also falsify the flood myth. Maybe you think that constantly repeating that there is evidence for a worldwide flood will make it come true but it won’t.Hydrodynamic sorting can produce layers but do you think that those layers don’t have characteristics, such as sorting by grain size and ripple marks that can be used to identify them as such? How do you think they were identified? And there is very good reason to think that the majority of the geologic column cannot be interpreted in this way. Show us where hydrodynamic sorting produces alternating layers of limestone and sandstone. Tell us how hydrodynamic sorting produces paleosols and evaporites.Do you think hydrodynamic sorting has produced the layers at the bottoms of lake Baikal and Lake Suigetsu? They just happen to be forming layers annually now that look exactly like the ones formed by hydrodynamic sorting and the first 4,000 thousand or so in Lake Suigetsu just happen to have C14 levels that agree with dendrochronalogy. Right. That may make sense to you but I doubt if it makes sense to anyone who doesn’t have a desperate need to believe an ancient myth.Do you think the dodo got hydrodynamically sorted to Maritius?
Randy

What is quite thoroughly impossible is that a formation such as the chalk that makes up the White Cliffs of Dover, or the Austin Chalk here in Texas, could be deposited in a year, or a decade, or a millenium. You cannot grow enough of the calcium carbonate-shelled organisms fast enough to do it: you can't get enough sunlight, enough nutrients, enough bicarbonate. You can't get rid of the metabolic wastes. For example, just one immediately quantifiable waste, carbon dioxide:The mass of carbonate rocks in the crust is about 3.5 x 10^20 kilograms: let's pretend that about half, 2 x 10^20 of this, was deposited in the Big Flood. The reaction for this is (Ca+2) + 2(HCO3-) = CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O. Along with the calcium carbonate, you'll form 8.8 x 10^19 kg of CO2, carbon dioxide. This is 53 times what the Earth's entire atmosphere weighs now, and about 160,000 times as much CO2 as our modern atmosphere now has. So Noah's atmospheric pressure would have been 800 psi, the oxygen content would have been below 0.5%, and the CO2 content over 98%.
Now you have all that flood water to dispose of, and over fifty atmospheres' worth of carbon dioxide to get rid of besides. That'll make a trainload of Coca-Cola, and a bunch of fire extinguishers besides.
Comments? Do you want to limit the Flood carbonates to only a tenth of what I assumed above? Do you want to know what the heat liberated by all that deposition amounts to, before we even start on the greenhouse effect?

There is a lot of sorting by grain size.
Paleocurrents can be measured all throughout the geo-col.
Turbidite deposits make up about half the geo-col.These things are not emphasized in 99.99% of mainstream geology. Paleocurrents do not rate a mention in the index of most university geology texts. You get it by borrowing actual monographs on sedimentology and stratigrapy. Howmany of these monogpahs have you read? I've read a dozen or so from cover to cover.Paleocurrents are the trade secret of geology.I appreciate your other evidence but the overwhelming evidence argues for rapidity (yes, with breaks in between surges).[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 11-21-2002]

"Turbidite deposits make up about half the geo-col."Citation, please?"I appreciate your other evidence but the overwhelming evidence argues for rapidity (yes, with breaks in between surges). "Breaks of tens of millions of years for carbonate sedimentation, maybe?

I'm *very* skeptical but intrigued. I'll keep an eye out.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... I come back in a couple days and look what happens...Okay, since we're no longer talking about the dodo, to kind of move this along, I'll see what another question can do.Are there any theories on why the dodo(s) found refuge on those particular islands and nowhere else in the world (such as other isolated islands hundreds or thousands of miles away)? And, if so, what evidence is present for said theories?[This message has been edited by TheDanish, 11-21-2002]

Gene90Here's a quote I posted a while back here from last (S-hemisphere)summer's mainstream readings:

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Pettijohn, p520-521
"The stability or persistence of a particular paleocurrent system through time is indeed one of the most astonishing results of paleocurrent measurements. Cross-bedding in a 12,000 foot (3,660m) sequence in the Moine series of Scotland displays a uniformity of orientation throughout which was described by Sir Edward Bailey as 'the most surprising single phenomenon' displayed by these strata." (Wilson et al Geol Mag 90,377-387 (1953)

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It's not that the inundations were gradual and then had currents. I think geologists are seeing the actual inundations themselves.

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Your statement that 'no layering occurred due to a glpobal flood' is an article of faith, Randy.

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Actually, it's an article of observation, based on sound geological principles.

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Maybe if you keep saying it, it might come true for you. I'll stick to the evidence rather than rhetoric.

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When are you going to start?

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When the dogma of long ages was contructed about 200 years ago, everyone was unaware that neat layering could occur rapidly. Surely, it was thought, these layers represent seasonal variations? No, hydrodynamic sorting can do it in seconds:

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p132 "Many strata must have been deposited very rapidly. In terms of geological time, they represent essentially instantaneous events, usch as floods, that had durations ranging from a few seconds to several days."

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No time for this nonsense right now, but where here do we hear that ALL strata are deposited rapidly? And what happens in between the instantaneous events? And what happens to the laminae that are formed, then eroded and never make it into the geological record? I'm sure that Blatt Middleton and Murray discuss this, so why don't you?

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p135 "In the past there has been a tendancy to interpret each lamina as produced by a separate sedimentation event - for example, a tidal cycle, the swash and backwash of a single wave, or a single bed load avalanche. It is now clear, however, that laminae may also be produced by strong flow, particularly during traction on a plane bed in the upper flow regime."

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How far 'in the past?' Why don't you debate people in the present? I have yet to see where Blatt et al. say that ALL sediments are deposited rapidly. Please document this.

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'It is reasonable to postulate a very rapid rate of deposition; that is a single lamina [or layer] would probably be deposited in a period of seconds or minutes rather than in a period of hours....There is factual evidence from both field observation and experiment that laminae composed of bed material are commonly deposited by current action within a period of seconds or minutes.'

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Indeed, within the context of a single event or bed. When will you start talking about the whole geological record?

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There is no reason why the majority of the geological column cannot be interpreted in this way.

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There are lots of reasons, beginning with the fact that you have taken all of these quotes out of context. By the way, I had Murray as a an instructor. He is not a catastrophist in the manner that you seem to present these authors. You have completely misrepresented their text.[This message has been edited by edge, 11-22-2002]

EdgeI do not claim that I can prove that all of the strata formed rapidly. But there is no real reason why each bounded sequence was not rapidly formed. I do not quote them out of context. these mainstream researchers are poiinting out that what was once thought was eons is, in some cases, rapid. We of course wonder why not all continuous sequences?

CoragypsI can guarentee you that is a mainstream result. I'm looking for the ref. I think I found it in a mainstream lecture course.

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TheDanish: Are there any theories on why the dodo(s) found refuge on those particular islands and nowhere else in the world (such as other isolated islands hundreds or thousands of miles away)? And, if so, what evidence is present for said theories?

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You don't really expect a logical answer from YECs on this subject do you?According to mainstream science the dodo evolved from ancestors that are related to pigeons. Forty million years of living in isolation from predators caused them to lose their expensive fast twitch flight muscles and become flightless, large and slow. They also lost all fear of other creatures since nothing preyed on them.According to YECs God did it. Look at the thread I started on biogeography and the flood to see many other questions that YECs can only answer with "God did it". No explanation of why God did it and of course there is no need to ask how God did it since God can presumably to anything. Just God did it. The all purpose answer to insoluble problems and a great demonstration of why Creation Science is an oxymoron.Randy

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Gene90

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Here's a quote I posted a while back here from last (S-hemisphere)summer's mainstream readings:

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Pettijohn, p520-521
"The stability or persistence of a particular paleocurrent system through time is indeed one of the most astonishing results of paleocurrent measurements. Cross-bedding in a 12,000 foot (3,660m) sequence in the Moine series of Scotland displays a uniformity of orientation throughout which was described by Sir Edward Bailey as 'the most surprising single phenomenon' displayed by these strata." (Wilson et al Geol Mag 90,377-387 (1953)

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It's not that the inundations were gradual and then had currents. I think geologists are seeing the actual inundations themselves.

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Not the Moine schist again...We've already been over this, haven't we? The Moine series is [i][b]pre-Cambrian![/i][/b]. BEFORE your Flood! The crossbedding is the result of erosion and deposition in a clastic wedge, just like hundreds of similar wedges formed since then (and some forming today). If you travel north a bit, you can find a modern clastic wedge building in the active foreland basin between Australia and New Guinea/Indonesia.Or you could look just to the east of the Andes for another foreland basin filling with sediments. Is it suprising to you that the sediments currently eroded from the Andes are all flowing to the east? Will this amazing uniformity of future paleocurrent indicators be attributed to the Flood by future Creationists?The Flood is not an explanation for the geology of the real world. And it's already been falsified many times over. Other threads have been started to discuss these falsifications, but you and TC have not deigned to participate in a meaningful way. Instead you forge ahead with these elaborations on your mythology, like the paleocurrents.

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Originally posted by Randy:

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Isn't it interesting that the sedimentary rocks only look like a global flood to YECs while everyone else in the last 200 years or so has been able to see that there is absolutely no evidence for a global flood in the geologic record and massive evidence against it.

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In fact, it was Creationist Geologists who first made the determinatiopn that the evidence did not support a worldwide flood.http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/sedgwick.html

The Moine itself is Pre-Cambrian, yes. But Pettijohn et al have mapped such effects throughout the geo-col including the epieric seas of the Paleozoic.Geobabble aside, paleocurrents indicate rapid flow.

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Geobabble aside, paleocurrents indicate rapid flow.

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And a very great number of formations indicate that they were formed under conditions of very slow flow: the Wolfcampian/Guadelupian of the Delaware Basin of West Texas, for instance, that shows 7000 feet of fine laminae, alternately of wind-carried sand and carbonate-rich deep-sea ooze. Or the North Sea Chalk.