rat mothers

You didn't answer my question. I am full aware of how you are using the word, which is not how I am using the word.

That made little sense, try again.

That's your opinion. I was not against abortion before I got involved with one. That fact that I have to point this out to you, demostrates your lack of comprehension. Well that's the whole point. It's not "just because I think it's wrong". It's human life, and many people "think it's wrong". It is clearly playing games with life, and the gift that we pocess to create it, whether it's from God, or a pool of mud. We considered that, and it absolutely not have been considered an accident. It would have been a small miracle. Not every vasectomy is 100% either. It is a chance we take, and will DO THE RIGHT THING if she had got pregnant, Mr. bicycle seat. Yea, it kind of represents the attitude in here sometimes, but it is meant in a humorous way. No matter how heated the debating gets in here, I actually like all of you.

I know how you are using the word, you know how I was using the word. Is there anything else that needs to be added? As I said in my last post:

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If your argument rests heavily on the word accident, you are probably arguing semantics...If you have a point make it...

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I answered the question wrt the nail analogy:

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If you want that in contexts of the nail analogy we could look at it like this:

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'I accidentally got an infected wound'

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I also addressed your meaning of the word several times. If you want to consider an accident an event which occurs where there is nobody liable then, Message 184:

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I never said that the participants in sex are not liable for the consequences of that sex.

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I agree with you. However, it was you that asked me to justify my use of the word accident when it came to pregnancy, which I did. It was also you that considered cutting yourself on a rusty nail as an accident, despite the fact that someone was liable for it. See Message 191This message has been edited by Modulous, Sat, 29-April-2006 05:28 PM

You should try explaining your reasoning for why my argument 'made little sense' instead of just asserting it, I think thats what the EvC people have in the guidelines:

I couldn't because it didn't seem to follow anything we are talking about, it was just all over the place.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that. It just goes to show, if you debate enough, you can make any word mean anything, but that doesn't change the truth.The truth is, you can get cut by a rusty nail, by accident, because you accidentally mis handled the nail in a wrong manor.
If it should get infected, is no accident, it's supposed to happen.This differs greatly from getting pregnant.
#1 there is no joy in handling rusty nails.
You don't intentionally puntcure yourself with a rusty nail, wher eon the other hand, you purposfully have intercourse, there is no accident. Even if you want to call the rubber breaking an accident, fine, but getting pregnant is no accident, it is supposed to happen.

As opposed to mis-handling it in a correct manner?Come one rat, what if you didn't SEE the nail? Bacterial infection is therefore a deterministic consequence of your carelessness !?ABE: Are you aware of what you just wrote - how on earth can you or anyone else know what is "supposed to happen" ? The sex is not the accident. The accident is the f**ing egg getting fertilized!! Not all acts of sex result in fertilization, nor is all 'sex' purely reproductive in function. I think this has been mentioned earlier in the thread. I was intentionally walking down a wooden dock when I stepped on a rusty nail sticking out of it. I was bonking this hooker in Bankok and the damn rubber broke. The difference is ?This message has been edited by EZscience, 04-29-2006 09:13 PM

You can't have things both ways, rat.You, for most of this thread, have adamantly argued that abortion is obviously and clearly a black and white issue. You have made statments which say that abortion is murder, and that getting an abortion is no different from killing a four year old child.Clearly, if your above assesment of abortion is truly your view, then you must believe that getting an abortion is tantamount to premeditated murder, and should be illegal, and that anyone who gets one should be put in prison for a long time or executed.Otherwise, you would be condoning the equivalent of premeditated murder of any child of any age (remember, you said that getting an abortion and killing a 4 year old are identical actions).Then, when pressed to apply your own proclamations to your own situation of having obtained an abortion in the past, you suddenly find that the issue is maybe not so black and white, and is perhaps complex.This is hypocrisy.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-29-2006 10:22 PM

Sorry, you CANNOT equate not seeing the nail, with purposefully having intercourse."I didn't see her vagina,,, I swear!!" Nobody mentioned carelessness, why should you? Oh come on, you science guys tell me all the time if I jump off a bridge, I will hit the ground.This is presisely what I am talking about, justifying and being logical only if it suites your side of the debate.So your telling me that getting cut with a rusty nail will never lead to infection? No, the accident is a failed contraceptive. But they will fail, we know that.Using none at all and calling it an accident is just not plausible. Hence the word risk.
We are not talking about "all sex" obviously. I have mentioned intercourse several times. Nails are not supposed to be sticking out of a dock. If it was, you could sue the owner of the dock, for the mishap.You cannot sue the condom manufacture if it breaks, for the birth of a child.I think the most important thing I am trying to get across here, is the liability factor. The term accident, whether you want to use it or not, does not exclude you from liability of it. You will suffer the consequences of your actions, whether you get an abortion, or you give birth.

Clearly I have not argued this. I am all for abortion if the sex was unintentional, i.e. rape. If I was so hung up on human life and destiny, I would be agaist it even in those circumstances. Those statements alone do not make it a black and white issue. I fully understand the reason why people want abortion. It's hard enough to live in this world the way it is, and sex is a great thing for all. But there is a responsibility there, and we have decided to play games with human life.I am not a black and white person schraf, I wish you would get that already. I always lie in the middle, even if I am voicing an opinion that could be taken as one-sided. God gave me the ability to understand people, and I can relate to all sides of the arguement.But having weighed all the options, that I can see at this point in my life, I do not like the implications abortions is doing to us as a society. I do not like playing games with human life.Does that give me the right to tell others what to do? I am not sure, the law tells not to do many things that I would want to do, for my own pleasure. I am just voicing my opinion. I am not standing on picket lines, or condeming anyone who goes through one. Fundementally the same on certain level. Having been through it, I feel I have done worse than just murder a human life, because I helped create it.But there is a whole side of the arguement that we haven't explored yet, and you keep avoiding, as if it never existed, and that is that it is legal, and has been for some time. It's been that way, and now part of our society, and that helps it to become morally acceptable. If your parents don't tell you it's wrong, then you are left to what you learned in school. How do we go from it being ok, to it not being ok? The arguement you have been trying to make to me for the last 2 threads, is BS. Your trying to convict me to jail, and it's not working, because that is just not the world we live in, is it? You are trying to make me say that it's murder, and people should be put to death for it.Let me tell you, after I went through it, I felt like I didn't deserve to live, really. But hey it's legal, so it's ok, isn't it?I used to say, if there is God, I really hope He forgives me, because I feel like shit for what I did. You got that all wrong, and after reading this you should see why. At no point did I say everyone who does it, should go to jail, or be executed. People kill 4 year children, and get away with it, because they are not in their right minds. Not ever taking of a life, leads to life in prison, or an execution. Having grown up in a society that accepts abortion, and made it legal, then I was not in my right mind when I did it. It was impossible to obtain a right mind, until I actually went through it, and experienced the reality of it. I am not a hypocrite.If you got one today, and your not a hypocrite for doing it, then neither am I.

There we go - the determinism argument. It goes something like this. If I accidentally knock over my glass, its no accident that the floor gets wet. If I place the glass too near my leg, its no accident that it gets knocked over. If I lose concentration at a road junction its no accident that I hit someone in the rear end. There are no accidents if it has an attributable cause. Everything has an attributive cause, therefore there are no accidents. Erm, except in the case where we can't hold a third party liable, in that case it is an accident. For example: an act of god.I'd anticipated this line of thinking earlier, and it's fine. If you want to consider the word accident to mean that, then yes pregnancy is not an accident. After all - as long as somebody can be held liable its not an accident, right?Why did you need me to repeat this? I stated it in Message 229, and I addressed it in Message 191,

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Unfortunately after explaining about accidents for a while it transpired that rR had, for want of a better phrase, moved the goalposts. rR decided an accident was an 'act of god', an event where nobody can be held liable. Since sex is an intentional act, he seemed to have defined his way to victory.

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Unfortunately the kind of event he described as an accident (the nail wound) is most often the liability of the person handling the rusty nails. He knew the risks of handling nails. If rR does not consider this an accident, then his comment inferring that I was saying sex is an accident is non sequitur.

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In Message 182 and Message 184 I was happy to accept your definition of the word, but also noted that if you want to understand what I meant you need to apply the definition I was using.

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According to your definition having intercourse and getting pregnant is not more accidental than driving and crashing, standing up and knocking drinks over, walking with shoelaces untied and tripping over...

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And that's fine, if you want to hold that as your definition I'm entirely cool with that. Now, I'm fairly sure I have explained my usage of the word and what I mean by it quite clearly now.

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Needless to say, you are simply asking me to repeat myself, so let me boil it down for you once more. You asked me to justify my use of the word accident. Which I did. You know how I used it, it doesn't need repeating, go back and look for things about unintented eventualities and risks and motor accidents and...I'm sure you remember.It needs to be stressed that according to your definition it can easily be argued that cutting yourself on a rusty nail is no accident - it's carelessness. Yet you defined cutting yourself on a rusty nail as an accident.

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If your argument rests heavily on the word accident, you are probably arguing semantics

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This message has been edited by Modulous, Sun, 30-April-2006 07:32 AM

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People kill 4 year children, and get away with it, because they are not in their right minds. Not ever taking of a life, leads to life in prison, or an execution. Having grown up in a society that accepts abortion, and made it legal, then I was not in my right mind when I did it. It was impossible to obtain a right mind, until I actually went through it, and experienced the reality of it. I am not a hypocrite.

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Oh, right.Society made you do it, and you had no free will to choose to not have the abortion.Is it your stance that because abortion is safe and legal in our society, suddenly all of the other available options for dealing with the situation you could have chosen such as adoption or keeping it once it was born don't exist anymore?Were you forced by our society to get the abortion?Or, is it the case that since abortion is safe and legal, you were able to include it as one of the options available to you among several?Furthermore, are you actually expecting me to believe that you and your girlfriend were actually insane when you chose the terminate the pregnancy?? Like, it would stand up in a court of law that you were so divorced from reality that you didn't have any idea of what you were doing? Like, you should have been in a hospital psychiatric ward because you were so ill, and several doctors would have agreed that you were clinically insane....because that's the state of mind people have to be in to successfully use the insanity defense to escape murder charges.Is that what you are saying?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-30-2006 06:48 AM

But I used the same arguement you did!

Why do you keep repeating yourself, when I already responded to those accusations of yours?