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Author
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Topic: The Results are in...There is a God! - What now?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 74 of 159 (371999)
12-24-2006 12:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 71 by Rob
12-24-2006 10:01 AM
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Re: Worship God?
scottness writes: If God exists, then it is not your life but His. If God gives us the gift of life, it is no longer His.
You've been given a responsibility, and when you fail, you blame God for giving you the freedom to choose. If God gives us free will, He forgoes the right to punish us for using it. In this season of giving, we should try to understand what a gift is.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:01 AM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 75 by Phat, posted 12-24-2006 12:56 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 78 by Jon, posted 12-24-2006 5:23 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 82 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:22 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 76 of 159 (372010)
12-24-2006 1:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
12-24-2006 12:56 PM
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Re: Worship God?
Phat writes: If I had a fishie and I gave my fish free will to be able to jump out of the confines of the living environment that I provided for him, would I scold him if he lay gasping for air on the table next to the tank? No. You wouldn't scold him, and that's my point. If you give your fishie an environment that he can jump out of, you don't fry him when he does. You help him. And then you fix your screw-up.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by Phat, posted 12-24-2006 12:56 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 84 of 159 (372122)
12-25-2006 1:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Jon
12-24-2006 5:23 PM
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Re: Worship God?
Jon writes: If they were simply forced to follow Him anyway, imagine all the "false" souls that would make it into Heaven. What makes you think God wants anybody to "follow" Him? (And what would it mean to "follow" Him, anyway? Where is He going?) And what makes you think He cares what "kind" of souls make it to heaven?
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Jon, posted 12-24-2006 5:23 PM | | Jon has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 85 of 159 (372123)
12-25-2006 1:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 82 by Rob
12-24-2006 10:22 PM
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Re: Worship God?
scottness writes: In this season of giving, we should try to understand what a gift is. Well it appears that to you, it is an opportunity to say, "Thanks sucker! Now piss off!" Maybe you shouldn't work so hard at misunderstanding. I didn't say anything about "thanks". When a gift is freely given, no thanks is expected.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:22 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 86 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 1:25 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 87 of 159 (372129)
12-25-2006 1:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 86 by Rob
12-25-2006 1:25 AM
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Re: Worship God?
scottness writes: I wasn't talking about the benevolence of the giver. Neither was I.
It's the reciprocation that is telling. Once again, what I'm saying is that with a true "gift", there is no reciprocation - or expectation of it.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by Rob, posted 12-25-2006 1:25 AM | | Rob has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 109 of 159 (372285)
12-26-2006 11:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 107 by Rob
12-26-2006 10:15 AM
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scottness writes: He just loves to give! When a gift is given, the donor gives up control of it. The recipient can do what he/she wants with it. The donor can not take it back and - for example - throw it into a lake of fire. So if there is a for-sure God, according to the OP, who loves to give, according to you, what is the gift?
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by Rob, posted 12-26-2006 10:15 AM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 110 by Rob, posted 12-26-2006 12:43 PM | | ringo has not replied | | | Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-26-2006 2:08 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 118 of 159 (372373)
12-26-2006 11:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
12-26-2006 2:08 PM
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Re: Gift=presence
Phat writes: The gift is our ability to reason and decide for ourselves! But it's only a gift if we are allowed to decide for ourselves. The topic title says, "There is a God! - What now?" According to some here, I am not allowed to say, "So what?" because if I do it's the lake of fire for me. That's not a choice. If the gift is the ability to decide for myself, then the consequences can only be the natural consequences of my decision, not the caprice of the so-called gift-giver.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by Phat, posted 12-26-2006 2:08 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 119 by Phat, posted 12-27-2006 7:57 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 121 of 159 (372422)
12-27-2006 11:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
12-27-2006 7:57 AM
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Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
Phat writes: would they be judged based on their willingness to surrender their right to make rational decisions and their acknowledgment that God knows best? They would be judged on how they used the gift(s) they were given. Suppose little Phat and little Ringo get identical toys for Christmas. Little Ringo takes his outside and plays with it, lets his friends play with it, lets the dog play with it. Within a few days, the paint is scratched, one of the wheels keeps falling off and the other three wobble. But a lot of kids have had a lot of fun with that toy and they still can. Little Phat, on the other hand, doesn't even take his toy out of the package. He looks at it admiringly, but he won't let anybody touch it. Years later, Phat sells his toy, in mint condition, for a small fortune. Ringo's toy has been lost or given away - he doesn't remember - but he remembers how much fun he had with it, so he buys a similar toy for his children. Which gift was used "correctly"?
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by Phat, posted 12-27-2006 7:57 AM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 129 of 159 (372534)
12-28-2006 10:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 125 by anastasia
12-28-2006 1:19 AM
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Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
anastasia writes: If little Ringo shares his toy and it cost his parents dearly to provide it, it is not as correct as it could have been. But how can it "cost" God anything to give us a gift?
If little Ringo shares his toy and his parents asked him not to, it is not as correct as it could have been. The parents would be wrong to ask him not to share the gift. Most of the enjoyment of the gift comes from sharing it with others. And putting limits on the use of a "gift" makes it not a gift but a loan.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 125 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 1:19 AM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 130 of 159 (372536)
12-28-2006 10:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
12-28-2006 7:02 AM
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Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
Phat writes: lets say that the gift is the gift of freewill and the knowledge between right and wrong. Let's say that the gift is the freedom to choose between right and wrong. Let's say that the gift is being able to figure out for ourselves what the consequences of our actions are. Let's say that God doesn't have to superimpose additional penalties on us. If we get punished for using the gift, why would we want it? If the results are in and there is a God, what now? Same as before. Do you expect God to force you to enjoy your toys?
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-28-2006 7:02 AM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
anastasia writes: In your analogy you did not mention the degree of accountability each child had to his parents. Because, in the context of gift-giving, the recipient has no accountability to the donor.
... you gave two acceptable good uses of a toy which can only be termed 'correct' or 'incorrect' relative to the desires of the givers. I gave examples of use and non-use. The child who didn't use the toy put only a monetary value on it. He would have been just as happy with the cash. He didn't appreciate the effort that was put into choosing a gift for him. He didn't appreciate the pleasure that the donor would get from watching him play with it. In a sense, a gift is a two-way street. That's why Jesus said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive."
I don't know a parent alive who doesn't get angry when a child breaks a new toy, and in many cases they certainly do punish them for their use of the gift. And they are wrong to do so.
Say baby Lala has a new toy and she bangs it on her sister's head. You're abusing the analogy. Baby Lala would be punished for hurting her sister. The toy is completely incidental.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 133 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 1:06 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
anastasia writes: I am having trouble drawing the line between 'the consequences of our actions' and the 'additional penalties'. I'll start with a simple one. If I cheat on my wife, she divorces me and I have to pay alimony. An "additional penalty" would be swimming in a lake of fire.
BTW...if you don't want your free-will.... Where on earth did you get that idea? If my free will is supposed to be a "gift", I want the giver to get the @#$% off my back and let me use it as I see fit. As far as I can tell, He seems to be cool with that. It's only those who don't understand what a "gift" is that seem to have a problem.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 134 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 1:16 PM | | anastasia has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
anastasia writes: If you would like to bring in an example of non-accountability gifting, you may. The talents were in no way to be construed as a "gift", so the example is irrelevant. You have not shown that children are "accountable" to their parents in their use of gifts. Our accountability to the state is irrelevant in the context of "gifts". If you would like to bring in an example of accountability gifting, you may. 
Isn't using the gift in the way the donor wants it to be used 'accountability'? Of course not. Accounting is much more precise than that. Every gift has an "intended" use. Toys are intended to be played with. Free will is intended to be exercised. If the recipient doesn't play with the toy, he might as well have been given stocks and bonds. If the recipient doesn't exercise his free will, he might as well have been given handcuffs. My point being that the only "wrong" use of a toy is to not play with it. The only "wrong" use of free will is to surrender.
... you never said the parents wanted to watch the child use the toy. I was the one who brought up the desires of the parents in the first place. So you did get the point, even if you pretend not to. The desire of the parents is that the child have fun (and possibly learn something on the side). Their desire is not that the child play with the toy in a prescribed way. That would take most of the fun out of watching. By analogy, God's desire would be for us to "have fun" in the exercise of our free will - i.e. to learn to produce good consequences instead of bad ones. By analogy, His desire would not be to tell us what to do in every instance. That would take most of the fun out of watching us.
Hey, this is your analogy here. In it toy=free will. I think baby Lala didn't use her toy appropriately. Strictly speaking, baby Lala is your analogy, not mine. Literal-minded people have such trouble with analogies, don't they? 
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 139 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 1:38 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
anastasia writes: Would you say that receiving a gift gives us the right to use it in which ever way we chose? Yes.
Would you say that if we are allowed to chose between good and evil, there should be no consequences for whichever choice we make? There should be no additional consequences beyond the natural consequences.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 141 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 4:19 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 146 of 159 (372690)
12-29-2006 2:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 143 by anastasia
12-28-2006 11:04 PM
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Re: Gift=free will: No strings attached
anastasia writes: In my opinion the natural consequence is damnation.... There is nothing "natural" about damnation.
quote:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
There's a reason why Paul made a distinction between wages and gift. The gift can not produce death, only life. Wages are one side of a contract. In our social contract, we stipulate punishmnet for crime. But a gift is not a contract - it's a one-way street. I don't know why it's so hard for some to understand: if there are strings attached, it is not a gift.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 143 by anastasia, posted 12-28-2006 11:04 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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