The Results are in...There is a God! - What now?

Hello cookie. I wanted to make a couple points that may or may not be useful to you. A different slant on the issue.If God exists, then it is not your life but His. That is a concept that is offensive to control freaks like human beings. I think we go wrong because we have been given freewill and misinterpret that as being able to do whateveer we want. So a man figures he can start a kingdom, and rule other men, and the next thng you know, we have a wretched existence.You see, a benevolent God is not in control Cookie (not in the sense you indicated)... instead, we are!Now, God is in control in the larger scope. He allows us to have our own way for a time. Only for the purpose of letting us see for ourselves how foolish we are.You asked: Only if you think the world is corrupt. God does not command us to worship Him because He is a control freak. That's what we project onto Him. He commands us to worship Him, because we need to worship Him if we are to understand what life is really about.You've made the same mistake we all have at one time or another Cookie... You've been given a responsibility, and when you fail, you blame God for giving you the freedom to choose.Even Adam blamed God... for putting the woman here with him.Notice you blame the state of things on others by implication. And now you use that as an excuse to live 'however the hell you feel like'. What about you?Ah scapegoats! It's always easier to blame someone else and nail them to a cross.But if your son was going to be run over by a truck (even though it was because of his own ignorance), would you push him out of the way at the expense of your own physical life?God did!All of this, because we deny that life is more than physical and emperical. Jesus not only preached that life's essence is Spirit and not material, he proved Himself. He lived it.He didn't condemn that which is already condemned... Instead, He led by example.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Well it appears that to you, it is an opportunity to say, "Thanks sucker! Now piss off!"I just see it in a different... shall we say... light.

I wasn't talking about the benevolence of the giver. It's the reciprocation that is telling.

I'm having a simmilarly difficult time understanding that about Brian as well.Hard to work with closed minds. As some jewish Rabbi said, they strain out a gnat, and swallow a Camel. Which reminds me... I resemble that remark as well. We should all be careful.

And that is a complete and whole argument! The logical argument and the dramatic illustration. Makes good sense to good hearts.Jon, I was somehow under the impression you were antagonistic to theism. I really must pay more attention, my paranoia is still kickin.Shh! don't tell anyone... but they're trying to kill me.

Well, I think I understand that well enough Brian. What is frustrating is that God's well constructed arguments are so well constructed, that they are called parables. We must start with the basics and move forward. He does exist, and He does reveal Himself (I'll explain more in a moment).And since He exists, and in terms of the question of this thread 'Now What?'... I think the most important thing is to get that news out there.A lot of this is perceived as preaching. And of course it is in the way we use the term 'preaching', but there is something missing in that definition. I am of course speaking from the point of view that Christianity is not just one of the many tools in the pluralistic toolbox that a person can choose to work best for them, but that it is indeed reality!So coming form that vantage point (the exclusivity of truth and all), when I here people asking for evidence, or well constructed arguments, I am disarmed. first you must accept you are a sinner in need of a savior. And that is lowly and offensive to people. Start low, then work your way up.When someone comes a long like me, trying to share that God really has spoken, my arguments are like algebra given to 1st graders; with the exception that they are not happy that someone is coming along and reminding them that they know nothing. A first grader is willing (in most cases) to admit they have no knowledge. But adults have vast amounts of knowledge and experience. They don't like being told to go back to school. And that the school they went to has taught them garbage.So it's not that the arguments are lacking, it's that I am often left with no recourse but to give the simplistic argument (which they assume they moved past already with precision) because they cannot understand the more complex arguments.so if I give the good stuff, it is perceived in the same way a 1st grader perceive algebra... "HUH?'. It makes no sense! but if I give the basics, they are insulted!Pride is the enemy of understanding.God reveals Himself through the moral law. First as an impossible demand on Mt Sinia that was so strigent, that elaborate sacrifices had to be performed to atone for the inability for the people to actually live out such righteousness. Then, He revealed Himself through his Son, and displayed a life layed down in complete submission to that law.No one can prove it to you but God. But you have to be willing to reopen the mind to what was abandoned as a fairy tale. I can relate to that Brian. I was raised Christian, and had abandoned the faith almost entirely. I even clled myself an atheist for some years, but I don't know if I was really honest there. I kept coming back to the conclusion that there just has to be something.It was a hard thing to do. To sit there and allow people to preach to me again (albeit in a much wiser church) things that appeared from my perspective to be rediculous. I do not like to be manipulated. I was very suprised to see the pieces of the puzzle coming together. I continue to tear it apart, and look under every piece. The puzzle remains, but the picture of Christ grows larger.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

and Schraf writes: No... because He is so secure, complete, happy, wise, and in comunion with Himself already, and because he is generous and good, He wants to share that same Godliness with beings that are not infinite or Godly like He is.Pretty amazing really! A GOd who is all powerful and all knowing, wanting to freely give to us, that which only He can handle. And the ensuing relationship with Him is what allows us to tap into that power (energy) that will propel us into the infinite and blissful existence of His.We only have to learn to trust Him with what appears to be the blind allegiance that Jesus modelled for us.It's like a kid being tempted by his peers to try drugs for the first time. Does he choose to trust his parents by honoring (worshipping) them in this situation? Or does he honor his friends and decide to bow to them?

No, I thought I was refuting your comment that God is dependant upon us.I think it is very healthy. And that is why God offers it to us. He already had communion with Himself (ie. trinity).He just loves to give! So in that sense He had to create us, not because He is dependant, but because He is good, and has the power and knowledge to always chooses to do that which is right.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Scottness writes:Schraff says:Well...Hmmm...That was an unfortunate choice of words by me. After thinking it over, I wish to ammend my satement and will edit the post inwhich they were taken.God does use masterfully, and even supernaturally crafted arguments; they're called parables.But it is like the complex mathematical problem... You must first start at the bottom.Only after you master addition and subtraction adnausiam, will you be able to progress to those parables that appear to make no sense whatsoever!First you must humble yourself and admit you are a sinner in neeed of a savior. That is easy for a child, but difficult for a proud and hardened adult who is vested in their lifestyle and habits.

The gift is dignity; freewill to choose to trust God's wisdom and reality, or create our own (even though we don't have the omnipotence to forsee the real consequences).These are some of the issues that are difficult to unravel huh?. We must make sure we are trying to unravel them! Otherwise, we are only defending against what may be true for some other motivation. that's not an accusation... just obvious. That could apply to anyone, not just unbelievers of God.Look at what you said. It's quite accurate!The giver of the gift has no intention of throwing the receiver into the lake of fire. The receiver has forced that hand to his own demise.God may have given the gift freely, but He would not be good if he allowed us to use it to destroy His heavenly and eternal reality.If the gift was not freely given, then he would just force us into His holy and moral reality. He does not!It takes a very secure being to consider creating another place inwhich we are free to live without His wisdom forever.According to the Bible, hell will endure forever, and God will simply forget it. You and I would have this gnawing disatisfaction in our gut that it was left to itself in isolation. We may well want to wipe it out all together and impose our will on the others. But that is because we are insecure, and God is not.He is willing to let us try to figure it all out and play His role. But He is not going to allow that to destroy Himself.Speaking of my own children as an illustration. My sons may grow up and reject everything I believe and hold dear. That is their descision to make. But that does not mean that I will allow it in my house. If they do not want to tap into my wisdom that is freely given, then they will have to stumble around in the dark. I onnly hope they come to their senses before the ignorance of youth deystroys them. I cannot step in and interfere too often without being accused of imposition. But in cases of devestation and failure, I will be there not to say, 'You Fool!', but to forgive and be glad they now understand. It's so much more comforting to them to hear I was quite the fool myself. To take the shame, carry the cross, and let the suffering nourish wisdom and repentance.Why anyone would choose to stay in a state of rebellion is a great mystery.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

I get knocked off my high horse all the time Archer. And I am so glad that I do. Otherwise what you say would be true.I did make a point. The point was that if I give the simple arguments, I am mocked as somphomoric and arguing beneath the dignity of such noble steeds!If I dish out powerful renditions of parablolic depth and simultaneous altitude, I am dismissed as preaching nonesense and platitudes.I'm not feeling sorry for myself at all. I'm just stating the situation as I see it.Someone must be willing to sit down and play student. This forum cannot be useful if everyone is always trying to be on the top of the mountain for no other purpose than to show their worth.My worth is as filthy rags. My pride is as easy to see as anyones, and I am more than conscious of it.And as cookie asked in the first post of this thread: It changes everything for me. And I now live for Him. It is Christs worth that I argue for, and that gives me worth beyond my own depravity.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

Richard has his way with words.

I'll assume this is not a joke. I first thought that it was.The quote fails under 'Unaffirmability' as a test for truth.
As with all cntradictions, it denies it's own source of power and amputates it's own legs.Richard has his way with words- with words he likes to play. His words are few- just like his thoughts- those brain cells thinking Poo!Truth (God) is the source of His own power, and is never divided against Himself. Divided kingdoms and divided thoughts, cannot stand.Poor Richard.
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)

Archer writes:First instincts and hope usually precede doubt. Then we doubt those feelings by thinking, and then fear of the puzzle overshadows the joy of incomplete discovery. So which wins in the end? thoughts or feeling?We need both which is why we have both. We don't discover, by elimination of resources, we discover by finding how they cohere. And when they converge, we can see much more clearly. And that does not mean I have practiced such or mastered it as often as I should. I am a fool learning not to be,very slowly. They are not things that we can master. They are things we choose to let master us, or not. At first intuition, or after the doubt of thought and the ensuing despair? Cynical humor and it's manifest laughter, is a feeling created by somewhat conflicted thoughts. It is an attempt to hide the confusion by denying it. Of being faced with the paradoxes and irony, and realizing we do not know the way.Our only other choice is to get on our knees. Obviously, I reccomend the latter.As you can see, thinking is not usually comical. It is objective, and has the objective of discovering truth, so that your joy will be complete.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.