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Member (Idle past 4981 days) Posts: 228 From: jo'burg, RSA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Results are in...There is a God! - What now? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: LOL!!! Ain't that the truth! ROTFLMAO!!!
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5876 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
So, you have just refuted Phat's contention that the sort of dependence we have with God is healthy. No, I thought I was refuting your comment that God is dependant upon us. I think it is very healthy. And that is why God offers it to us. He already had communion with Himself (ie. trinity). He just loves to give! So in that sense He had to create us, not because He is dependant, but because He is good, and has the power and knowledge to always chooses to do that which is right. Edited by scottness, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5876 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Scottness writes:
What is frustrating is that God does not reveal Himself through well constructed arguments. Schraff says:LOL!!! Ain't that the truth! Well...Hmmm... That was an unfortunate choice of words by me. After thinking it over, I wish to ammend my satement and will edit the post inwhich they were taken. God does use masterfully, and even supernaturally crafted arguments; they're called parables. But it is like the complex mathematical problem... You must first start at the bottom. Only after you master addition and subtraction adnausiam, will you be able to progress to those parables that appear to make no sense whatsoever! First you must humble yourself and admit you are a sinner in neeed of a savior. That is easy for a child, but difficult for a proud and hardened adult who is vested in their lifestyle and habits.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
scottness writes: He just loves to give! When a gift is given, the donor gives up control of it. The recipient can do what he/she wants with it. The donor can not take it back and - for example - throw it into a lake of fire. So if there is a for-sure God, according to the OP, who loves to give, according to you, what is the gift? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5876 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
When a gift is given, the donor gives up control of it. The recipient can do what he/she wants with it. The donor can not take it back and - for example - throw it into a lake of fire. So if there is a for-sure God, according to the OP, who loves to give, according to you, what is the gift? The gift is dignity; freewill to choose to trust God's wisdom and reality, or create our own (even though we don't have the omnipotence to forsee the real consequences). These are some of the issues that are difficult to unravel huh?. We must make sure we are trying to unravel them! Otherwise, we are only defending against what may be true for some other motivation. that's not an accusation... just obvious. That could apply to anyone, not just unbelievers of God. Look at what you said. It's quite accurate! The giver of the gift has no intention of throwing the receiver into the lake of fire. The receiver has forced that hand to his own demise. God may have given the gift freely, but He would not be good if he allowed us to use it to destroy His heavenly and eternal reality. If the gift was not freely given, then he would just force us into His holy and moral reality. He does not! It takes a very secure being to consider creating another place inwhich we are free to live without His wisdom forever. According to the Bible, hell will endure forever, and God will simply forget it. You and I would have this gnawing disatisfaction in our gut that it was left to itself in isolation. We may well want to wipe it out all together and impose our will on the others. But that is because we are insecure, and God is not. He is willing to let us try to figure it all out and play His role. But He is not going to allow that to destroy Himself. Speaking of my own children as an illustration. My sons may grow up and reject everything I believe and hold dear. That is their descision to make. But that does not mean that I will allow it in my house. If they do not want to tap into my wisdom that is freely given, then they will have to stumble around in the dark. I onnly hope they come to their senses before the ignorance of youth deystroys them. I cannot step in and interfere too often without being accused of imposition. But in cases of devestation and failure, I will be there not to say, 'You Fool!', but to forgive and be glad they now understand. It's so much more comforting to them to hear I was quite the fool myself. To take the shame, carry the cross, and let the suffering nourish wisdom and repentance. Why anyone would choose to stay in a state of rebellion is a great mystery. Edited by scottness, : No reason given. If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3625 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Dear Rob,
A request. Instead of congratulating yourself on your profundity and feeling sorry for yourself over having to dumb it all down for us, try having a point. A point makes a message much more interesting for your readers. Thanks. ___ Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev. Archer All species are transitional.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5876 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Instead of congratulating yourself on how profound you are and feeling sorry for yourself over having to dumb it all down for us, try having a point. I get knocked off my high horse all the time Archer. And I am so glad that I do. Otherwise what you say would be true. I did make a point. The point was that if I give the simple arguments, I am mocked as somphomoric and arguing beneath the dignity of such noble steeds! If I dish out powerful renditions of parablolic depth and simultaneous altitude, I am dismissed as preaching nonesense and platitudes. I'm not feeling sorry for myself at all. I'm just stating the situation as I see it. Someone must be willing to sit down and play student. This forum cannot be useful if everyone is always trying to be on the top of the mountain for no other purpose than to show their worth. My worth is as filthy rags. My pride is as easy to see as anyones, and I am more than conscious of it. And as cookie asked in the first post of this thread: how ould God existing change your life It changes everything for me. And I now live for Him. It is Christs worth that I argue for, and that gives me worth beyond my own depravity. Edited by scottness, : No reason given. If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Are you challenging Gods right and position to be whatever He wants to be?
I would think that we should be grateful that God cares about us enough to want (or need) to have us around. IMHO, however, God knows us better than we know ourselves, and is not the mean vindicative God portrayed in our literature by our own overactive imaginations. (If God were mean, however...there is not much we could do about it! ) see...the whole perspective originates with the idea that we are a product of Gods imagination as the OP suggests...God is not a product of our imagination and cannot be defined and explained according to our whims. Whats so problematic about a source (force) or character that exceeds anything that humans can control? We are in awe of natural phenomena like black holes...why are we always so skittish about God? HINT: We don't like to face our own limitations and be accountable to God.
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The gift is our ability to reason and decide for ourselves!
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Fosdick  Suspended Member (Idle past 5528 days) Posts: 1793 From: Upper Slobovia Joined: |
Phat, re:
Are you challenging Gods right and position to be whatever He wants to be?
Of course this assumes that God has free will. I question, along with Einstein, that God has any choices of being "whatever He wants to be." Just what would His choices be, anyway? I don't think God ever had a choice of being Bugs Bunny or Sitting Bull. ”Hoot Mon
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3990 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
cookie writes: What if, one day it turned out that the evidence all pointed to the existence of a supreme deity; responsible for the creation and maintenance of our reality? How would you feel? What would you do? Well, He'd/She'd have a lot to answer for, hm? Among other things, I'd begin researching 1) the possibility of better gods and 2) the position papers of the Opposition.
If God is in control, is that the sort of God you would want to worship? Should God actually be worshipped at all? I've always maintained my agnosticism on both points--the existence of God and the question of whether that God, if existing, should be worshipped. As indicated above, I'd like to ask some questions first. Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals. -Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5942 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
phat writes: Are you challenging Gods right and position to be whatever He wants to be? Of course not, that would be silly and foolish. But in your first sentence you just slipped in one condition on God. You gave God a gender. Gender is a human or animal trait, an artifact of evolution. Gender would only be useful or make sense if the opposite gender existed. You are challenging God's right to be say, no gender at all.
phat writes:
I would think that we should be grateful that God cares about us enough to want (or need) to have us around. IMHO, however, God knows us better than we know ourselves, and is not the mean vindicative God portrayed in our literature by our own overactive imaginations. What! now you are putting more conditions on God. You are presupposing that God
God is not a product of our imagination and cannot be defined and explained according to our whims. Yes but you just put a significant profile of who this God being is, based on your imagination and whim - counter to your first admonishment. You put God in box and gave God a number of constraints. It is all error in that you are giving God characteristics based on no objective evidence. You are using a preconceived and egotistical notion that God is mindful of humans. You are even characterizing God as partially human by giving God human traits - blasphemy, if I have heard of it. It is very speciesist (at least arrogant) of humans to think that we are at the center of Gods mind and concern. God may view us like we might view the mold that grows on the cheese in the refrigerator.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: The gift is our ability to reason and decide for ourselves! But it's only a gift if we are allowed to decide for ourselves. The topic title says, "There is a God! - What now?" According to some here, I am not allowed to say, "So what?" because if I do it's the lake of fire for me. That's not a choice. If the gift is the ability to decide for myself, then the consequences can only be the natural consequences of my decision, not the caprice of the so-called gift-giver. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Allow me to run with this a moment!
Take two hypothetical people. Bill and Bob. Lets assume that both of them live in a culturally diverse environment..(rather than a Southern evangelical community, for example.) Bill has an epiphany that God exists. He says to himself, "Wow! I don't really understand you, God, but I know enough to know you are in charge! Take my life...Please!" Bob is a bit more rational. He says to himself, "I know that God exists, but what I don't know is how to live any differently than I have been living. I'm doing my best and my best is all I can do. If God wants anything else from me, I'll know it." Is Bill any more "saved" than Bob? Would that they be judged, would they be judged based on their willingness to surrender their right to make rational decisions and their acknowledgment that God knows best?
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Is Bill any more "saved" than Bob? Would that they be judged, would they be judged based on their willingness to surrender their right to make rational decisions and their acknowledgment that God knows best? Bill sounds like an idiot and a God that would want people to surrender their right to make rational decisions sounds even more idiotic. Bill has very likely been conned. He is weak and looking for some way to abrogate his own innate responsibility for his actions and behavior. Likely GOD would judge Bill as having totally failed. Whether Bill is saved or not is really questionable, but if saved, he would certainly be sent to the remedial humanities class before being allowed to take Heaven 101. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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