Fundamental Biblical Christianity and Fundamental Islam Fundamentally 180% Opposites

You are not being fair. You are setting the definitions so that your argument is correct even though those definitions are not true on the ground.There are plenty of fundamentalist Xians, who say they are fundamentalist Xians, who kill others in the name of God and God's laws. You yourself berate homosexuals and muslims rather than withholding judgement and turning the other cheek (some pretty major teachings). It is pretty obvious you are even advocating violence against both groups from the state, in the name of your traditions.Does that mean you are not a fundamentalist Xian because there are some Xians who accept homosexuality and don't want to war on muslims? Or does that mean your version of fundamentalism gets some leeway the more violent violent Xians don't get?On the flipside there are plenty of fundamentalist muslims that do not like violence at all. They feel that (other than when attacked first) there are no messages in the Koran which compel one to violent action.Just like fundamentalist Xians, there are very violent fundamentalist denominations of Islam. Why do muslims not get to divorce themselves from the violent examples of Islam as you conveniently have done so for yourself?It appears to hinge on examples from the religious text. What example each prophet has set in their lives.Yet Mohammed was being persecuted in a time of war, which is unlike Jesus and so he has a very different life. Yes, he does not teach to turn the other cheek like Jesus, but he sets down some pretty strong rules of engagement. Interestingly enough these rules would condemn suicide bombings, especially of innocents. You do know this right?So by YOUR definition all those muslims who engage in suicide bombings or attack innocents are not fundamentalist. This is something many (peaceful) fundamentalist Islamic teachers who oppose groups like Al-Queda, as well as mainstream muslims have been saying for some time.Many violent Xians do not use Jesus as their example. Like you, they have used members and teachings of other parts of the Bible to preach their examples of hate and murder. You must grant me that outside of Jesus and his direct disciples, most of the Bible's prophets murder on grander scales even than Mohammed. And they do not teach peace at all, except the peace that comes after other nations are vanquished and dead.So are Xians wrong when quoting beyond Jesus. You insist you are not when condemning homosexuals.And as I mentioned earlier, Jesus's direct teachings are to turn the other cheek and not to judge others. Yet this whole thread is about judgement and stemming from another thread where you admonish people not to turn the other cheek.Please define what a true fundamentalist Xian is then, and how you can possibly fit into it while excluding other violent Xians. And if this can be done, why can't this be done for muslims? In doing this last bit I'd really like you to explain how terrorists get to be labelled as fundamentalist when it is clearly against the Koran.------------------
holmes

I did not notice your reply to my post till today, sorry about that.I'm going to answer a number of your comments with one point. You are making the no true Scotsman fallacy. I tried to get around this by asking specific questions, yet you still managed to do this.I understand that when you look at the New Testament, Jesus does not engage in any battles, nor does he encourage violence. If one focuses only on the life of Jesus, then you are right in saying that other Xians who only focus on the life of Jesus will likely not support battles or violence.However, YOU do not get to pick and choose who REAL Xians are and what they can or cannot focus on in a BIBLE, which is about more than just the life of Jesus. There is an Old Testament which talks about the will of GOD, and the SECOND COMING of JESUS. You are the one who quotes prophecy all the time.Is not part of that whole end section of the Bible the idea that when Jesus returns he will not be nice? He will return as a Lion, and wield a sword?I seem to remember this being said by all the (self-proclaimed) fundamentalist Xians when they talk about prophecy and the end times.This includes the forced conversion, or slaughter of all Jews. Am I correct or incorrect that this is part of the NT, and the FULL life of Jesus?On the flipside, Mohammed was involved with conflict in his life. So if one is forced to concentrate only on his life, then one will see violence (including some offensive military actions).However, YOU (even more than with Xianity) do not get to say what the followers of Islam must concentrate on, when practicing their religion. Xianity and Islam are not the same religion and so do not require the same tenets (and that is IF I acept for sake of argument that Xianity's main tenet is only look at the life of Jesus).You have repeatedly ignored (or merely reasserted your original position and so practically ignored in reply) that Mohammed's teachings instruct when, where, and how violence is acceptable.You may be very right that some denominations of Islam find ways around these proscriptions, by appealing to other parts of the faith (like certain acts in Mohammed's life). But these are the same kinds of people to Islam, as the Xians who find examples in other parts of the Bible are to Xianity.Who are the "fundamentalists" and/or who are the practitioners of the "real" religions?I am suggesting that you are picking and choosing unfairly. Particularly with regard to Islam, you are showing an astounding ignorance of the actual tenets of the religion, as well as a bias against the MAJORITY of its practitioners.This is particularly atrocious:

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Only ones who most fundamentally mimic the practices of Mohammed himself and who know what he taught about warfare and resistance against infidels and heretics are the real fundies of Islam.

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That is certainly NOT the majority of muslims. The MAJORITY do not just "mimic" or study what he practiced/taught about warfare. You may have heard of this book he wrote? It has a lot more teachings in it then that. Maybe you ought to check it out some time.Actually you might want to read the Autobiography of Malcolm X. In that, he goes on a pilgrimage to Mecca and realizes (once in the midst of the faithful) that the militaristic version of Islam which he was taught (and teaching) was wrong, and he ultimately converted AWAY from violence and hatred towards other races.As far as your quote above, anyone can equally say about Xians:"Only ones who most fundamentally mimic the practices of Abraham and Moses, and in times of peace Jesus, who know what they taught about warfare and resistance against infidels and heretics are the real fundies of Xianity."If others cannot say that about Xianity, how can you say what you say about Islam?

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He taught that Islam must dominate the planet and this type of warfare is stregically crucial to fulfillment of that ultimate purpose of His sect.

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Please explain how Xians and everyone else in the free world must deal with the threat posed by this threat from the followers of Islam. If it involves violence, please explain how it can. In fact, how can it do so in a pre-emptive fashion (which if I remember right, you advocated)?And once victorious against the followers of Islam, please explain what the Bible says will happen when Jesus (remember he isn't dead) returns to earth to continue his reign and achieve HIS kingdom on all earth.Will it involve violence and death to those who do not worship him (or God)?What will happen to me if I do not raise one finger against a Xian?Then explain to me how I tell the difference between the ends of Islam and that of Xianity.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

You're simply never going to answer my post are you buz? And you know it's because I am right and you are wrong.You can post any part of Islamic teaching, and the militant zealot Islamic fundies you like. I will agree that these militant Islamic fundies are violent threats.But this ignores the fact that there are equally militant zealot Xian and Jewish fundies.And you cannot escape by calling Xian and Jewish militant zealots non Xians and Jews, yet Islamic militant zealots the high example of what a good muslims are.The majority of muslims are not militant zealots. They do not focus on the narrow passages you quote, and instead look at other quotes which are about restrictions on combat, and helping others out.These are like the majority of Xians and Jews who do not focus on the Bible's consistent exhortations to genocide.You may also not claim that Jesus was the paragon of nonviolent virtue. If you ARE RIGHT, then Jesus is not dead. He is still living and simply waiting to come back as it is foretold and YOU have foretold... as a lion... carrying a sword to kill or convert all (most being killed) in a horrific apcalypse, in order to setup his kingdom on earth!Revelations predicts just as brutal acts by your precious prophet, perhaps more so, than Mohammed ever did in his life, or exhorted to his followers.It seems you have a choice. Be consistent and demonize everyone including yourself, or reach out to those in Islam (who do as you do with your Xian faith), and accentuate the positive, loving portions of their teachings.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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I have never denied that there are not many peaceful Muslims, have I? My point has been always that the closer one gets to the prophet and his book, the more militant they get, hasn't it?

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And what you ignore is that the same can be said about Xians. As Xians and Jews get closer to their prophets and their books they get more militant.This has been shown already. To refute this you simply claim these militants are not real Xians. But then give no reason why this cannot be claimed by muslims, other than your assertion that Jesus (and Jesus alone) was a kind figure in the Bible (conveniently ignoring all of God's other prophets Jesus's predicted rampage through Revelations).

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My point has always been that nowhere in the Bible are Christians taught to be violent, to kill or persecute anyone.

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Nowhere in the BIBLE? The entire OT, Paul's statements supporting levitical law, and Revelations. Plenty of Xians use all of these to support their claims to violence.If you can argue they are concentrating on the wrong parts, so can muslims regarding the whackos who use Islam and Mohammed to justify their violence.

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That Jesus will come at a time of the "wrath of God" changes nothing for the here and now, now, does it? This in no way allows for Christians to persecute anyone during this, the church age, does it?

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The end times are nigh, right buz? So this means everything.But that is besides the point. People use the example of what Jesus will be, and so IS, as examples of how they should live, and who they should persecute. Is this not true?Why can't people talk about the vengeful Jesus... the lion... when describing how they should treat those who stand against them? It is IN THE BIBLE.And from your own words the militant Islamic zealots are using the vision of their end goals while preaching their need for violence. How come they don't get to say it shouldn't matter to anyone because their conquering the world is some time in the future?Oh yeah, because they are making it happen now... just like the Xian and Jewish militant zealots.You simply cannot make the claims you have without being hyocritical (and I would add bearing false witness).And finally, what are the point of your threads besides exciting people to action against the Islamic threat? Does that not suggest violence? Or are you advocating that everyone abandon weapons and begin to pray instead?

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Please get real and I will be more responsive to your posts.

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I am quite real. You simply cannot pull a con job and expect to get away with it. I have grown up exposed to many denominations of Xianity and even if your hypocracy was not evident enough in what you say, I can state for sure that your no true Xian declarations are full of...And that goes double for your statements that muslims must become more militant as they get closer to their religion. Have you ever known a muslim? Have you ever actually read anything by those muslims that do not preach hate?Buz, you are the one that needs to get real. Your kind of bigotry is not helping the REAL PEOPLE reach solutions for living together peacefully in the REAL WORLD.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

You posted two replies, so I'll stick both of mine in this one.In your first reply you simply repeat your fallacy. Do you know what the no true scotsman fallacy is? You do not get to claim you are the real Xian, while a very large number of Xians claim they are Xians. Who is to say who is right?You claim that Jesus didn't teach bloodshed. Well I hate to tell you but in the Revelations of his second coming he sure does shed blood, and his followers should while fighting for this cause. This has been used as an excuse by militant Xians. You say this is wrong for them to do? Welcome to the club of muslims who feel those taking the specific parts of the Koran out of context to his overall message of peace are wrong.And there are plenty more examples from the Bible, in the OT all over the place, that GOD allows for vengeance and bloodshed. If you believe the law should prosecute homosexuals (which I believe you have said) and have us fight Islam (which you appear to be arguing), because of God's will as stated in the OT, then what makes you any different than the Islamic militants saying the same thing?If you are not stating this, then please explain what is your position on homosexuality and Islam (especially with regard to how our government and society should treat them)?

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Paul never ever taught the Christians to disobey the commandments of Jesus to love their enemies and to do violence to nobody. Please document otherwise if you think you can or that he himself taught them to persecute their enemies or anyone else.

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Holy smokes, do I need to comb through the anti-gay threads to find the quotes by others (and I am pretty sure you are there as well) which show how Paul's writings (I believe it was in his letter to the corinthians) legitimate legal prosecution of homosexuals (as well as many others deemed bad in lev)?Personally I like to think of Jesus being a guy that was pro love and anti hate. Too bad I find my largest opposition in Xians, including you.Half the time your telling me how nice he is, the other half your telling me how scared I have to be when he comes back.

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debate fairly or go and harass somebody else.

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I am debating fairly. You bring up points and I knock 'em down. Fair and square.I find it interesting that you started threads badmouthing me and my friends and then say I am harassing you when I point out how wrong your accusations are.Why don't you address my points rather than reasserting your original statments?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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The important thing is do they follow the example and commandments of their lord and saviour and his apostles?

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Yes they do. Remember they quote the end times as fair game for example of behavior, or at least judgement.You have yet to explain why good Xians are unable to look for examples from Christ the lion, the wielder of the sword... especially if the end times are nigh.

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I'm sure nobody died or went home disabled or maimed after having been driven out.

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What will happen when he returns? What is his plans for earth, and how are they any different for an atheist, than the plans of Mohammed would be?What do you feel the government should do about homosexuality or the threat of Islam? Will force be involved, or will you leave them to do as they will and let God be the judge?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

You were given Xian quotes that people could use wrongly. You said that doing so was wrong.Yet earlier you were given an Islamic quote, and then proceeded to use sources that quoted wrongly OTHER parts of the Quran, as some sort of refutation.Let us go to the Quran and see what it says about how to handle nonbelievers, including the small portion YOU took out of context in rebuttal, and then I would like to hear you explain how the message in the Quran should be taken differently than it is plainly written...1) FIGHTING SHOULD NOT BE STARTED BY MUSLIMS, AND PEACE ALLOWED FOR THOSE WHO DESIST (except the initial oppressors):

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002.190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities (also translated as do not exceed limits). Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
002.191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
002.192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
002.193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

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008.019 If ye sought a judgment, now hath the judgment come unto you. And if ye cease (from persecuting the believers) it will be better for you, but if ye return (to the attack) We also shall return. And your host will avail you naught, however numerous it be, and (know) that Allah is with the believers (in His Guidance).

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008.061 And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

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2) THE FULL SECTION FROM WHICH YOU TOOK A PIECE OUT OF CONTEXT (showing that in context it is not for a global assault on pagans, and rather quite specific, particularly the ones who assaulted him first in the Holy Land):

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009.001 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
009.002 Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).
009.003 And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,
009.004 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
+++ Your excerpt+++ 009.005 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
009.006 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
009.007 How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.
009.008 How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.
009.009 They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they are wont to do.
009.010 And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors.
009.011 But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
009.012 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
009.013 Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers

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(Wow, in context that little piece you quoted just doesn't look the same does it?)3) HOW MUSLIMS SHOULD TREAT THOSE OF OTHER FAITHS (who do not attack them first):

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002.256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

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109.001 Say: O unbelievers!
109.002 I do not serve that which you serve,
109.003 Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
109.004 Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
109.005 Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
109.006 You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

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Please post the contrasting Quran passages Buz, particularly to this last section, which you say you are familiar with.[This message has been edited by holmes, 02-04-2004]

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

In a strange way I am kind of thankful for his ignorance. I was just being lazy in not hitting the books to directly refute him using the Quran, but he got my dander up so I felt it was time.In going back through the Quran, I was reminded what an interesting faith it is. There is so much about caring for others, especially strangers, and not taking advantage of others...Oh yeah, and allowing others to have their faith besides Islam.Kind of refreshing after so much rummaging through the OT and NT for quotes.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

See, now I showed you quotes directly from the Quran (which the majority of peace loving muslims explain is the real Islam) and asked you to show me passages from the Quran which (when not taken out of context) conflict with these messages of tolerance for other religions.This is what I get...

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Let's let Muslim scholars dedide for us on that. After all, isn't that the fair and unbiased way to decide, Holmes?

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How could that be fair when the only "scholars" you choose to focus on are the militant one's perverting Islam for their own agenda?Without question there are people who rationalize and take quotes out of context in order to push their powerhungry militaristic agenda.When the people who do this are Xian, you say they are not Xian.But when they are Islamic, you say we have to listen to them because they are Muslim scholars????The point I was trying to make is that in the Quran there are clear statements regarding tolerance of other religions, and these are not contradicted anywhere else in the Quran.Your quotes said nothing different, and underscored my own argument. I don't like the fanatical militant version of Islam which has taken hold throughout the MidEast, and the way their militant "scholars" twist commands for tolerance into one for war.This would be the same way that YOU and I might be offended by those Xian militant "scholars" doing the same to Xianity.How about the large number of Muslims that follow the Quran directly and do NOT listen to the militarized version fostered by those people you quote?Please find something in the QURAN to refute the passages I gave, not statements by people that if they were Xian you would call nonXian.BTW I notice you did not address the final section of my post which clearly shows that the QURAN calls for Muslims to accept the existence of other religions.Remember? You have yours, I have mine... AND THAT'S FINE???Why are we to believe there can be no real Muslims which believe in the Quran?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Oh yeah, and as far as this "scholar's" interpretation...

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As you see, this verse was inspired in order to free Muhammad (and God) from any peaceful and protective covenant which Muhammad made with the people of Mecca, as if the covenant were shameful behavior from which Muhammad (and his God) must free themselves. Nothing remains after that, except the pledge of war and massacre, as Ibn Hisham says later.

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Take a look at the whole passage and in context. The point of the passage is that he was attacked first and forced out... He was oppressed. Thus this section was dealing with how he was to deal with those that had already oppressed him IN THAT AREA!It is not talking about Pagans anywhere and everywhere. You can see this talked about in all of the other passages which I gave you... and you apparently ignore in order to focus on this ONE PASSAGE. (Like the whole religion hangs on that one piece regarding a specific time and place?).And even with those that were pagan then as long as they did not attack and acted in charity and at least listened to his words, then they would be given safe passage out (check out 009.006). A bit condescending I suppose, but it's not the call to global control you made it out to be.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Don't you see where your logic is failing you?I can quote Pat Robertson and others of his ilk (and in Catholicism the Pope etc etc). I can talk about Bob Jones University, or Oral Roberts, or how about the Vatican and the NUMEROUS Catholic affiliated universities?Without question all of these are major Xian leaders, and the locations some of the MOST major historical centers of Xian learning.Yet you are able to call them nonXians, and incorrect if they say anything which is not directly in the Bible... as in they put a quote into some other context. It is true that I can find people that believe as you do, that these famous and popular people are wrong. Are they really able to say so, or must they defer to these more knowledgable and popular men?If Xians can, the why are Muslims unable to claim the popular people and institutions you claim are what defines Islam equally wrong when they do what the above Xians do? I can find Muslim people and scholars that say that very thing. Why MUST they defer?

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As I said, these people are more qualified for comment on the Quran than you or me.

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This shows your ignorance of Islam. But let's play this game... then I am to understand that you cede your ability to comment on the Bible and the teachings of Christ to Pat Robertson and the Pope because they are more qualified than you, right?If not, then why must I (and the others who talk about Islam as I do) pretend this person you quote is more qualified than us?Let me ask, do you have Azhar's assessment/comparison of how that ONE passage is to be interpreted in context with the other passages which state that other beliefs are to be tolerated?Does he speak of these at all?How do YOU make sense of that ONE passage (which when taken in the context it is written clearly speaks of a singular time and place), with the general advice not to aggress and let others live as they will?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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He wasn't attacked.

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It says that he was right in the passage! It was a series of Q&A asking why he (or Muslims) would deal with these pagans that had already transgressed against them.You are right that it gave them a period of time and then to attack those that remained, unless they converted, or asked for protection.They would have to leave Mecca though. However this condition was not a universal mandate from then on, and outside of that area.You will note this in the other passages I also quoted.

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This is just one example of how he operated his whole life after he became powerful.

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Once again, the QURAN is the holy text which people must read and understand. It is irrelevant what he did in life... and frankly this is cheap character assassination.And Once again, what will Christ do in HIS WHOLE LIFE? His atrocities are yet to come. At least that is what many famous Xians claim. Of course these same people also usually point to the actions of the OT leaders, that were more horrendous than anything Mohammed did.

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They were not allowed in Mecca with their pagan gods as they had done for centuries. After Ramadan his forces were to attack. Note in .006 that they MUST HEAR THE WORDS OF ALLAH for protection, i.e. submit to Islam and him the prophet of Allah.

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Right... Mecca, not the world. And those that ask for protection and are willing to hear the words will be given safe passage out of there. They didn't have to convert, simply being willing to listen and accept and not attack Muslim beliefs.This is less severe than pagans in Israel, or any non Xian in the End Times.But let's get this straight, you are admitting now that this passage says nothing about the rest of the world right?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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What baffles me about this whole matter is how the religion that leveled our greatest buildings, waging war on us and which is perpetrating terrorism around the globe is receiving all this apologetics...

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You are making a mistake. I have hated the Taliban and selfserving theocracies across the MidEast for quite a long time. You will never hear a word from me supporting them or their version of Islam.That said, the Islamic religion did not level our buildings, just as shintoism did not sink our ships at Pearl Harbor. It is powerful men who have used the power of religion, and the desperation of the populations they lord over, that plotted and brought down those buildings.In particular, Al-Queda and the Taliban were products of our great Xian leaders who wanted to use religious zealotry to fight the incursion of Soviet Power in the region. They created a monster, and helped twist a religion to their own ends.We are now fighting that monster. I am all for that. You simply have to recognize that not all Muslims are part of that monster of organizations and militarism, nor is that a NATURAL end of that religion.You are alienating the peaceful Muslims, and giving leverage to the militant ones by backing up their false claims. That makes YOU part of the problem. You are helping our enemies recruit.

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who at the same time show so much hate for Christianity, the religion that inspired the freedoms and blessings we've enjoyed

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Are these the same Xians that are against gays and gay marriage, and porn, and blamed 9-11 on Americans that like that stuff, instead of blaming the terrorist organizations which actually conducted the atrocity?Gee, no wonder there's a backlash.Or how about Xians bombing our government buildings, or shooting people, or simply forcing their beliefs into our government social programs (which means taking our money by force to fund their religion)?Hmmmmmm.But those are not Xians right? Just like the terrorists are not proper representatives of Islam.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Hi Andya,I notice we went for the same points with Buz. I hope you feel I did an adequate job for a nonbeliever in coming to the defense of your religion.I noticed you used Yusufali's translation/interpretation. I had a choice of three and went with Pickthal's because I thought it was more clear to a modern English read. In future, would it be better that I use Yusufali over Pickthal? My third choice was Shakir, would he be any better/worse?Also, there has been mentioned the Hadiths. Is there any reason that a Muslim must accept these as teachings to be followed at all? I have been unable to ascertain why anyone would want to place them on a level with what is supposed to be the direct words of God.Thanks

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Well I can't believe I'm defending Syamsu about anything, but for the first time his writing was almost lucid.

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we've become the greatest missionary and benevolent nation of the world because of it.

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Given that this country's greatness was built in part by slaves, and in near total by the purge and genocide (one of the few successful in history) of Native Americans to seize their lands, are you amenable to allowing other nations to do the same?How does this history conflict your statement above?

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Islam, like Roman Catholicism are tolerant only when they must be tolerant. Their true nature becomes manifested when they receive the power to exert it.

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You misspoke, not "Islam" just as RC does not represent all Xianity. I am okay with you calling what you dislike "Fundamentalist Islam", but then it must be compared to those Xians who do the same things as these militant theocrats and who happen to call themselves "Fundamentalist Xians".If you can denounce the RC and people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell (the true Xian Fundies in my eye as well as their own), how come regular Muslims cannot denounce their version of the RC and Evangelics?

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Confused? No. I would assume that it was understood that I grieved the loss

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Just to back you up, I understood what you were saying. But you were still confused in that you said it was a religion, rather than a religious faction, which caused the attacks.

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That's nutty, Syamsu. Kill the enemy by loving them so as to save them? Say what??????????

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Please do not feign you can't figure this out. Xian Fundies have said the same thing. Oh yes, you do not believe they are Xian, just as Muslims doe not believe the Islamic Fundies are true Muslims.By the way, what happens to all the enemies of Xianity (which by definition are all nonbelievers) when the end times come? I keep finding it odd that you soend so much time preaching about the coming of the end times, and then refusing to talk about the nature of these end times.

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The fundamentals of Christianity in no way call for killing, either tit for tat or otherwise.

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So you were against the war in Afghanistan and Iraq? How about the war on terrorism? How about the end times?Xians are allowed to fight in the end times, right?And once again, how does this score with your assessment of America being a great Xian nation when the purging of Native Americans involved MUCH killing?

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Better reread my unrefuted points that the fundamentals of Christianity in no way enslave or do violence to others. Prove your point by refuting what I've alread posted on this. I've proven the fundamental differences in the fundamentalisms of both religions.

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Hey, I agree that you CAN say that Xian texts may be read so that they do not allow for killing. If you want to call that the REAL fundamentalist Xianity, then that's cool.But you have not proven anything except your sheer ignorance of Islam. My and Andya's points have been proven and unrefuted by anyone except people on the Islamic side, who you say must be THE Islamic authorities, but if they were Xian you would denounce. You can't choose for another people who THEY must think is the most important source of knowledge.Just as you can denounce RC and Evangelicals, many Muslims reject their versions of these things, and follow strictly the WORD OF GOD as written in the Quran. If you call yourself the real fundamentalist Xian then you should call these people the true Islamic fundamentalists.You have yet to show any refutations of our points from the Quran itself, not even from "scholars". In fact, you have only shown yourself taking a single quote out of context (as you accused others of doing with Xianity), in order to dash all the other quotes you were presented.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)