Fundamental Biblical Christianity and Fundamental Islam Fundamentally 180% Opposites

I think the question posed in this thread is callous reactionism. For Christain to exonorate their religion of guilt and simultainously condemn another is a positively un-Christain action, this is a poorly considered and dangerous opinion to have. It's akin to saying, 'my religions better than yours'

Good-day Buz, all I can do is speak from experience. If it hadn't been for my early learning for respect of my country, it's laws, and it's very diverse culture, then I, as a fundamentalist christian at one time in my life would probably be behind bars or dead right now. That is because the church I went to taught me two things:1. Pay lip-service to loving others, & 2. Hate the world, & it's 'sinful' ways. I suppose that if I had the power of the church inquisitors in the middle-ages, then I could have reaked holy-war on the people of our society who I and my fundee buddies looked down on with pity and self-assuredness anyway. Good God, I once even had a fundee girlfriend who kept saying rediculous crap like, "If I were president I would put all adulterous men on national TV and cut thier d__ks off. Jesus taught us to love, not to obsessively wish we could force the world into our religion.

Garf wrote:
"Martin Luther (1483-1546): "On the Jews and Their Lies" - 1543 - According to the ninth child of a Roman Catholic primary school teacher who also became a school teacher in Nuremberg this was one of Hitler's inspirational sources."That's a very peculiar reference to say the least, the 9th child. What did the other children have to say?It might be true that he was influenced by it, but there's something particular about Luther's antisemitism in that book which is inconsistent with Nazism. Luther wrote all kinds of awful things about Jews in the book, to kill them, burn them, isolate them, etc. The thing is the reason he gave in the book for persecuting Jews was because in Luther's view, Jews didn't believe that all men are created equal. He wrote that Jews believed they were superior, by believing they are the chosen people, and this was the justification he gave for proposing the most cruel punishments against them.From reading parts of the book it appears he was in direct debate with some Jewish scholars. I speculate Luther couldn't really reconcile equality and unicity of people theologically, and it appears that some Jewisch scholars trounced him in direct debate on the question. Being trounced in debate appears to be a more realistic reason for Luther's enormous rage, in stead of the reason he gave.All men are created equal is not consistent with Nazism. I guess Hitler might still have reinterpreted the book. Used the hate against Jews, and discarded the message of equality, but it's not such a straightforward interpretation. Reasonably Luther would still be likewise critical about Nazi disbelief in equality, or else he would be entirely inconsistent.regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

Andya, your above quote must be read in the light of the following verses, also quotes of Mohammed in the Quran: And these words as to people who resist Islam Also, both contemporary scholars of Islam like Sa'id Ramadan al-Buti in his book, "Jurisprudence in Muhammad's Biography and Saudi scholar, Dr. Muhammad al-Amin attribute the following quotation as coming from the prophet Mohammed. The following earlier scholars of Egypt and Saudi Arabia also agree to the above:
1. The Sahib of alBukhari, part I p 13
2. The Sahib of Muslim, part I p 267 (The Interpretation of the Nawawi)
3. The Comentary of Ibn Kathir, p 336
4. The Muhalla (the Sweetened), Vol 4 p. 317
5. "The Ordinances of the Qur'an" by al-Shafi'i, p 51, part II (on the authority of Bbu Huraira).
6. Mishkat of al-Masabih, par 1, p. 9.
" Almost all major Islamic references have quoted this statement because it is one of the most famous sayings of Muhammad which he followed and which he commanded his followers to implement."The above info is from the book, "Behind the Veil" By Abd El Schafi, an excellent source if reliable information on Islam, especially since everything in this book is derived from Islamic sources. The book is full of quotes from both contemporary and ancient Islamic scholars and leaders.I'll try and get to a response on the rest of your post soon.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

Can you explain why you consider _Behind the Veil_ a reliable source ?

Paul, is it that you like to keep me busy addressing yada or is it that you just do not comprehend?Did you bother to note the following in my post? What better sources than Islamic sources for documentation on Islamic doctrine and the prophet? What more can I add, except to suggest you get the book and read for yourself. These are only a partial page of the documentation of stuff from Islamic scholars and leaders themselves as to what the religion and the prophet have practiced and taught over the centuries in this truly informative book.Buz post #34

So in other words you have no idea how accurate it truly is. It is quite possible to misrepresent and distort a view by presenting quotes selectively and out-of-context. Anyone familiar with the creation-evolution debate is aware of how creationists do just that.What little I can find about this book does not inspire confidence. So if thats all you've got I have to dismiss it as not being a credible source.

You're simply never going to answer my post are you buz? And you know it's because I am right and you are wrong.You can post any part of Islamic teaching, and the militant zealot Islamic fundies you like. I will agree that these militant Islamic fundies are violent threats.But this ignores the fact that there are equally militant zealot Xian and Jewish fundies.And you cannot escape by calling Xian and Jewish militant zealots non Xians and Jews, yet Islamic militant zealots the high example of what a good muslims are.The majority of muslims are not militant zealots. They do not focus on the narrow passages you quote, and instead look at other quotes which are about restrictions on combat, and helping others out.These are like the majority of Xians and Jews who do not focus on the Bible's consistent exhortations to genocide.You may also not claim that Jesus was the paragon of nonviolent virtue. If you ARE RIGHT, then Jesus is not dead. He is still living and simply waiting to come back as it is foretold and YOU have foretold... as a lion... carrying a sword to kill or convert all (most being killed) in a horrific apcalypse, in order to setup his kingdom on earth!Revelations predicts just as brutal acts by your precious prophet, perhaps more so, than Mohammed ever did in his life, or exhorted to his followers.It seems you have a choice. Be consistent and demonize everyone including yourself, or reach out to those in Islam (who do as you do with your Xian faith), and accentuate the positive, loving portions of their teachings.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

.......And the little you've found is what specifically?Isn't author, work, and in some cases, page number enough to indicate the book uses authentic Islamic source for it's criteria? The whole book of over 300 pages is documented in this manner.Did you, for example, do a google on "Sahib of al-Bukhari" to find that he wrote this early cononical work on the sayings of the prophet Muhammed? Must I do your research for you, or are you just going to biasingly spout off these denunciations of my sources?Maybe Andyea would have some comment about my sources, as to their credibility??[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 02-02-2004]

Holmes, I have never denied that there are not many peaceful Muslims, have I? My point has been always that the closer one gets to the prophet and his book, the more militant they get, hasn't it? Thus the leadership in so many Islamic nations being totalitarian and supportive of violence against unbelievers, infidels and heretics who wish to convert out of Islam. Nor have I ever denied that there isn't violence in the Bible, have I? My point has always been that nowhere in the Bible are Christians taught to be violent, to kill or persecute anyone.That Jesus will come at a time of the "wrath of God" changes nothing for the here and now, now, does it? This in no way allows for Christians to persecute anyone during this, the church age, does it? You're desperate for rebut stuff so you stoop to these spin jobs. Please get real and I will be more responsive to your posts. Otherwise Holmes, responding to much of what you say becomes a waste of time and thread bandwidth.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

That its published by a press so small they don't have a website and their books are not even available through Amazon. I've found that it is recommended by a few Christian groups - none mainstream - as an encouragement and means to evangelise Muslims. That is is hostile to Islam describing it as a "deception". In other words it has much the same profile as the "Moon God" nonsense you wer promoting.Add to that a recommendation from you - based on nothing more than the claims to accuracy made in the book itself - and the evidence favours the view that it is inaccurate - and likely dishonest - propagandam

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I have never denied that there are not many peaceful Muslims, have I? My point has been always that the closer one gets to the prophet and his book, the more militant they get, hasn't it?

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And what you ignore is that the same can be said about Xians. As Xians and Jews get closer to their prophets and their books they get more militant.This has been shown already. To refute this you simply claim these militants are not real Xians. But then give no reason why this cannot be claimed by muslims, other than your assertion that Jesus (and Jesus alone) was a kind figure in the Bible (conveniently ignoring all of God's other prophets Jesus's predicted rampage through Revelations).

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My point has always been that nowhere in the Bible are Christians taught to be violent, to kill or persecute anyone.

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Nowhere in the BIBLE? The entire OT, Paul's statements supporting levitical law, and Revelations. Plenty of Xians use all of these to support their claims to violence.If you can argue they are concentrating on the wrong parts, so can muslims regarding the whackos who use Islam and Mohammed to justify their violence.

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That Jesus will come at a time of the "wrath of God" changes nothing for the here and now, now, does it? This in no way allows for Christians to persecute anyone during this, the church age, does it?

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The end times are nigh, right buz? So this means everything.But that is besides the point. People use the example of what Jesus will be, and so IS, as examples of how they should live, and who they should persecute. Is this not true?Why can't people talk about the vengeful Jesus... the lion... when describing how they should treat those who stand against them? It is IN THE BIBLE.And from your own words the militant Islamic zealots are using the vision of their end goals while preaching their need for violence. How come they don't get to say it shouldn't matter to anyone because their conquering the world is some time in the future?Oh yeah, because they are making it happen now... just like the Xian and Jewish militant zealots.You simply cannot make the claims you have without being hyocritical (and I would add bearing false witness).And finally, what are the point of your threads besides exciting people to action against the Islamic threat? Does that not suggest violence? Or are you advocating that everyone abandon weapons and begin to pray instead?

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Please get real and I will be more responsive to your posts.

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I am quite real. You simply cannot pull a con job and expect to get away with it. I have grown up exposed to many denominations of Xianity and even if your hypocracy was not evident enough in what you say, I can state for sure that your no true Xian declarations are full of...And that goes double for your statements that muslims must become more militant as they get closer to their religion. Have you ever known a muslim? Have you ever actually read anything by those muslims that do not preach hate?Buz, you are the one that needs to get real. Your kind of bigotry is not helping the REAL PEOPLE reach solutions for living together peacefully in the REAL WORLD.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I see while I was editing in additional comment to my short post you were responding so I'll bring my edit forward for your response.So, so far, the only research you've done on the book is where it's sold and you debunk it on that. Come no, Paul, how would I be treated by a bunch of you people if I debunked a work of evolution science on the basis of who sold the book? Aren't you willing to do the fair thing and just admit you know nothing about the book except what I've documented and that there's nothing in what I've shown to indicate any unfair tactics by the author?Buz quote: [qs]Isn't author, work, and in some cases, page number enough to indicate the book uses authentic Islamic source for it's criteria? The whole book of over 300 pages is documented in this manner.Did you, for example, do a google on "Sahib of al-Bukhari" to find that he wrote this early cononical work on the sayings of the prophet Muhammed? Must I do your research for you, or are you just going to biasingly spout off these denunciations of my sources?Maybe Andyea would have some comment about my sources, as to their credibility??

HOLMES, THEY (CHRISTIANS) DO NOT AND YOU KNOW IT. THE CLOSER A CHRISTIAN GETS TO JESUS, WHO TAUGHT HIS FOLLOWERS TO HARM NOBODY, BUT TO DO GOOD EVEN TO THEIR ENEMIES, THE MORE NON-VI0LENT THEY ARE. THE VIOLENT ONES WERE NOT THE FUNDIES, BUT THOSE LIBERAL ONES WHO DISOBEYED THE GOLDEN RULE AND THE COMMANDMENTS OF JESUS. My apologies for raising my cybervoice, but you just don't want to admit the truth of what I have been saying over and over and over and over and over and over etc, etc.

Paul never ever taught the Christians to disobey the commandments of Jesus to love their enemies and to do violence to nobody. Please document otherwise if you think you can or that he himself taught them to persecute their enemies or anyone else. This's just another one of your usual spin jobs, Holmes. Get over it and debate fairly or go and harass somebody else.