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Author Topic:   Fundamental Biblical Christianity and Fundamental Islam Fundamentally 180% Opposites
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 46 of 182 (82318)
02-02-2004 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
02-02-2004 7:25 PM


You were the one who said that it was reliable. Based on no research at all.
I only point out that the book is obscure, hostile to its subject and promoted only by people either likely to be biased or most definitely biased. With no indication that the author has any significant credentials. And it was recommended by you - that's grounds for suspicion in itself.
If you can find an equivalent case of a pro-evolution book - then feel free to doubt it. But I doubt that you can find one that anybody here would care about.
And lets get this straight - it is YOUR job to do the research to back up YOUR claims. You didn't do it. And now you're telling me that you won't do it because it's somehow MY job ?
[This message has been edited by PaulK, 02-02-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2004 7:25 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2004 11:11 PM PaulK has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 47 of 182 (82325)
02-02-2004 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Buzsaw
02-02-2004 7:33 PM


HOLMES, THEY (CHRISTIANS) DO NOT AND YOU KNOW IT. THE CLOSER A CHRISTIAN GETS TO JESUS, WHO TAUGHT HIS FOLLOWERS TO HARM NOBODY, BUT TO DO GOOD EVEN TO THEIR ENEMIES, THE MORE NON-VI0LENT THEY ARE.
You're free to call those people non-Christians, I suppose. The problem is that they call themselves Christians. You need to analyze why they feel comfortable doing that, because until you do, we're free to counter that the people you're talking about aren't really Muslims.
After all, didn't Jesus braid a whip out of rope and drive the moneychangers from the temple? That hardly sounds non-violent, and it's just the sort of justification an abortion bomber could use...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2004 7:33 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2004 11:33 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 48 of 182 (82329)
02-02-2004 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Buzsaw
02-02-2004 7:41 PM


You posted two replies, so I'll stick both of mine in this one.
In your first reply you simply repeat your fallacy. Do you know what the no true scotsman fallacy is? You do not get to claim you are the real Xian, while a very large number of Xians claim they are Xians. Who is to say who is right?
You claim that Jesus didn't teach bloodshed. Well I hate to tell you but in the Revelations of his second coming he sure does shed blood, and his followers should while fighting for this cause. This has been used as an excuse by militant Xians. You say this is wrong for them to do? Welcome to the club of muslims who feel those taking the specific parts of the Koran out of context to his overall message of peace are wrong.
And there are plenty more examples from the Bible, in the OT all over the place, that GOD allows for vengeance and bloodshed. If you believe the law should prosecute homosexuals (which I believe you have said) and have us fight Islam (which you appear to be arguing), because of God's will as stated in the OT, then what makes you any different than the Islamic militants saying the same thing?
If you are not stating this, then please explain what is your position on homosexuality and Islam (especially with regard to how our government and society should treat them)?
quote:
Paul never ever taught the Christians to disobey the commandments of Jesus to love their enemies and to do violence to nobody. Please document otherwise if you think you can or that he himself taught them to persecute their enemies or anyone else.
Holy smokes, do I need to comb through the anti-gay threads to find the quotes by others (and I am pretty sure you are there as well) which show how Paul's writings (I believe it was in his letter to the corinthians) legitimate legal prosecution of homosexuals (as well as many others deemed bad in lev)?
Personally I like to think of Jesus being a guy that was pro love and anti hate. Too bad I find my largest opposition in Xians, including you.
Half the time your telling me how nice he is, the other half your telling me how scared I have to be when he comes back.
quote:
debate fairly or go and harass somebody else.
I am debating fairly. You bring up points and I knock 'em down. Fair and square.
I find it interesting that you started threads badmouthing me and my friends and then say I am harassing you when I point out how wrong your accusations are.
Why don't you address my points rather than reasserting your original statments?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2004 7:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 182 (82405)
02-02-2004 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by PaulK
02-02-2004 8:05 PM


You were the one who said that it was reliable. Based on no research at all.
1. I have the book; all three hundred plus pages of it full of quotes from Islamic scholars, leaders and clerics.
2. I have already posted to you an example of how easy it is to research on Google as to the credibility of the sources the book uses, citing a very early scholar who was close enough to the prophet to quote his sayings and having them cannonized for official Islamic doctrine. I am fully capable of producing a whole lot more if that's what it takes.
3. On the ohter hand all you've managed to do is complain about my credible documented input, all the while producing nothing to back up your allegations that they are inadequate.
I only point out that the book is obscure, hostile to its subject and promoted only by people either likely to be biased or most definitely biased. With no indication that the author has any significant credentials. And it was recommended by you - that's grounds for suspicion in itself.
Obscure in whose eyes? How do you know it's hostile to it's subject having not read it? Same for showing bias? How more fair and objective could he be, using only Islamic sources so as not to exercise undue bias? Credentials? Such as what? Aren't the credentials of his sources what counts? No comment on the last one, except to remind you how many times I'm admonished to read certain evo stuff in order to be considered by certain people to be fit to participate in certain debates.
And lets get this straight - it is YOUR job to do the research to back up YOUR claims. You didn't do it. And now you're telling me that you won't do it because it's somehow MY job ?
Uh uh. you challenged the credibility of the book. Put up or shut up. I've done my part and followed forum rules thoroughly with my credible documentation. If I, detested creo buz, acted like your acting in debate, admin or mods would be on my case big time in a hurry, I kid you not!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 02-02-2004 8:05 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2004 3:17 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 182 (82408)
02-02-2004 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by crashfrog
02-02-2004 8:15 PM


You're free to call those people non-Christians, I suppose. The problem is that they call themselves Christians.
Talk is cheap. The important thing is do they follow the example and commandments of their lord and saviour and his apostles? Until they do they're not considered fundamentalist Christians, but liberal in how seriously they take their supposed lord/master, Jesus.
You need to analyze why they feel comfortable doing that, because until you do, we're free to counter that the people you're talking about aren't really Muslims.
They're comfortable in their violence because they disregard what Jesus and the apostles taught and make their own rules to suit their own desires. He's not their lord. God is not considered the "holy father" of Roman Catholics. The pope is the one addressed as such. The priests are their local spiritual "fathers." The cardinals, bishops and popes of the dark ages made the rules to kill, persecute and torture, not Jesus or the apostles.
After all, didn't Jesus braid a whip out of rope and drive the moneychangers from the temple? That hardly sounds non-violent, and it's just the sort of justification an abortion bomber could use...
He was no wimpy long haired feminstic looking softie as so many artists portray him. He was manly, tough and rugged, having lived in the countryside and wilderness most of his adult life and was showing them he was lord of the temple of God. I'm sure nobody died or went home disabled or maimed after having been driven out. They were clearly in violation of temple rules as set forth by Jewish law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 02-02-2004 8:15 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by crashfrog, posted 02-02-2004 11:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 52 by Silent H, posted 02-03-2004 12:54 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 51 of 182 (82410)
02-02-2004 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
02-02-2004 11:33 PM


The important thing is do they follow the example and commandments of their lord and saviour and his apostles
Well, do you? Have you sold your posessions and businesses? Do you wander homeless, preaching the good word? Did Jesus get rich with his own carpentry business? Or did he give up everything - including his life - for his beliefs?
The answer is, they're following the example of Christ, at least as far as they percieve the example, just like you.
They're comfortable in their violence because they disregard what Jesus and the apostles taught and make their own rules to suit their own desires.
But, say, ignoring Jesus's example and teachings of poverty, that's different.
The cardinals, bishops and popes of the dark ages made the rules to kill, persecute and torture, not Jesus or the apostles.
They interpreted the Bible in the way that best suit them, just like the abortion bombers, and just like you.
You're right, Buz. Talk is cheap. So why do you still own a computer? Why do you still waste your time here? Why do you sit comfortable, in America, when folks in Africa are starving? Oh, I'm sure you salve your concience with some tax-deductable donations, but is that really following Christ's example?
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 02-02-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2004 11:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Angeldust, posted 02-03-2004 4:50 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 52 of 182 (82421)
02-03-2004 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
02-02-2004 11:33 PM


quote:
The important thing is do they follow the example and commandments of their lord and saviour and his apostles?
Yes they do. Remember they quote the end times as fair game for example of behavior, or at least judgement.
You have yet to explain why good Xians are unable to look for examples from Christ the lion, the wielder of the sword... especially if the end times are nigh.
quote:
I'm sure nobody died or went home disabled or maimed after having been driven out.
What will happen when he returns? What is his plans for earth, and how are they any different for an atheist, than the plans of Mohammed would be?
What do you feel the government should do about homosexuality or the threat of Islam? Will force be involved, or will you leave them to do as they will and let God be the judge?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2004 11:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 53 of 182 (82470)
02-03-2004 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
02-02-2004 11:11 PM


So you have the book. And you've done no checks to verify any of it.
Are you capable of considerignthe quotes fairly. You're the one who said that Calvinism has nothing to do with Calvins writing saying that heretics should be executed. Do you apply that standard to these quotes ?
And why are you suggesting that it is wrong to question the accuracy of your source ? You said it was reliable but so far you havn't offered any real support for that. And the evidence I have found gives adequate reasons to suspect otherwise - indeed the fact that you are using t is adequate reaon to suspect otherwise. The fact is that you have already pushed one piece of anti-Islamic propaganda at us - ignored a contradiction within it even after it was pointed out to you and refused to accept that it might be wrong for a considerable time despite being unable to answer the objections. And you expect me to accept your word that THIS source is reliable when you have by your own admission done no reasonabel checks on it ?
So you say that it isn't obscure. But it's by a VERY small press, Amazon doesn't carry it very few sites mention it. It is obscure, and that's a fact.
How do I know it's hostile ? describing Islam as a deception and encouracging the conversion of Muslims hardly indicates a sympathetic view.
I've laready pointed out how a source can be unfair, biased and dishonest by relying on sources from the "other" side. If it is so fair and unbiased, does it let mainstream Muslim scholars have their say ? Does it allocate space to let them respond to the attacks made on their religion ?
As for your last remark you are encouraaged to read evolutionist material to learn the science because virutally ALL the relevant scineitic publications will be written by evolutionists. The equivalent book would be written by a genuine expert on Islam - and one who is at least moderately sympathetic. What you are *doing* is reading something that is likely to be equivalent to the infamous "quote boook" - a creationist collection of quotes framed so as to
mislead the reader.
You claimed that the book was a reliable source first. I asked YOU to support YOUR claim. You couldn't. SO what you are saying is that you don't have to d the research to support your claims - but anyone who challenges your claims does. Well you ran away from the discussion of the Olivet Discourse because you "didn't have time" to properly read the prophecy that YOU put forward as an example. Isn't it time that you held yourself to the same standard that you hold others ?
Oh and I did your Google search :
Your search - "Sahib of al-Bukhari" - did not match any documents.
[This message has been edited by PaulK, 02-03-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 02-02-2004 11:11 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2004 10:05 AM PaulK has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 54 of 182 (82530)
02-03-2004 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Andya Primanda
01-30-2004 1:13 AM


I don't understand why you don't mention it, but the prophet infamously once had 700 prisoners of war killed. Don't you know about it, or you thought this would not be of interest in this discussion?
I think the question of content of beliefs is of secondary importance to the question how much influence the beliefs have over a person.Broadly I would guess the closer you get to any book or set of beliefs in determining your actions, the more depraved your emotional life becomes, which leads to violence and perversion. I think this is just a simple heart vs mind issue, and getting very close to beliefs would inevitably result in the mind getting all influence, and the heart nothing. The way that many people are complete slaves to their religion is too much obviously, likewise the way many people just dispense with religion altogether in favour of some simpleminded life's motto is too little.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Andya Primanda, posted 01-30-2004 1:13 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 182 (82540)
02-03-2004 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by PaulK
02-03-2004 3:17 AM


Your search - "Sahib of al-Bukhari" - did not match any documents.
Say what?? Paul, is this a blatant lie or an honest mistake?? I get about 10 pages of stuff on this search. The following is an example:
AL-BUKHARI
810 - 870
Islamic Traditionist
Al-Bukhari was a compiler of the Sahib, one of the six canonical collections in Sunni Islam that reported the sayings of Mohammed.
Al-Bukhari was born in Bukhara in Central Asia. Beginning with a pilgrimage to Mecca he spent a lifetime to collect information about the Prophet Mohammed. From the some 600,000 traditions he gathered he included only those he deemed completely reliable in his 'al-Jami as-sahih.
www link :
Traditions of Islam many by Al-Bukhari
http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/people_n2/ persons4_n2/albukhari.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2004 3:17 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 182 (82544)
02-03-2004 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Syamsu
02-03-2004 9:29 AM


Hi Syamsu: Welcome to the discussion. I've always liked your contributions to the forums and thank you for bringing this up. It's not that I'm not aware of it. I've mentioned in past discussions about this subject. In fact it's in my Encyclopedia Brittanica, as well as in several books I have on Islam. These 700 or so Jewish men were taken out to a pit, one by one beheaded, and pushed over into the pit. It was an all day carnage. This all the prophet did after the town surrendered. The wives of these hapless victims were captured and taken for slaves, concubines, many sent to the prolifering slave market.
I was planning on eventually getting to this, but have been bogged down in debunking this proliferous stuff being thrown at me rapid fire by folks who apparantly are more interested in debating than in finding truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Syamsu, posted 02-03-2004 9:29 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 57 of 182 (82545)
02-03-2004 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Buzsaw
02-03-2004 10:05 AM


It is neither a blatant lie nor a mistake on my part. I did the exact google search you suggested and got no results.
Which shows that you hadn't tried it yourself - and still haven't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2004 10:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-03-2004 10:26 AM PaulK has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 182 (82546)
02-03-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by PaulK
02-03-2004 10:22 AM


Uh... just to clear up a misunderstanding... google with the quotes, you get nothing, google without them, you get about ten pages.

"It isn't faith that makes good science, it's curiosity."
-Professor Barnhard, The Day the Earth Stood Still

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2004 10:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2004 10:36 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 59 of 182 (82548)
02-03-2004 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Dan Carroll
02-03-2004 10:26 AM


Quite possibly - but if Buz had got the spelling right ("Sahih" - not "Sahib" and he's made that mistake it least twice) it would work WITH the quotes. And if you are looking for a specific phrase then it is always better to use quotes.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 182 (82549)
02-03-2004 10:38 AM


The following are quotes from Islamic scholars who corroborate the established belief that Muhammed himself stated that his was an offensive Jihadist kind of war on infidels and unbelievers.
In his book, Jurisprudence in Muhammad's Biography, the Azhar scholar, Dr. Muhammad Sa'id Ramadan al-Buti, says the following: "The Holy War, as it is known in Islamic jurisprudence, is basically an offensive war. This is the duty of Muslims in every age when the needed military power becomes available to them. This is the phase in which the meaning of Holy War has taken its final form. Thus the apostle of God said: 'I was commanded to fight the people until they believe in God and his message..."' (p. 134, 7th edition).
Saudi Scholar, Dr. Muhammad-al-Amin, in his book, The Method of Islamic Law, clearly states: "No infidel [unbeliever] should be left on his land as it is denoted from Muhammad's statement: 'I was commanded to fight the people... (until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger).'"
In his book, The Biography of the Apostle, part 4, Ibn Hisham says: "Muhammad sent Khalid Ibn al-Walid to the tribe of the children of Haritha and told him: 'Call them to accept Islam before you fight with them, but if they refuse, fight them.' Khalid told them: 'Accept Islam and spare your life.' They entered Islam by force. He brought them to Muhammad. Muhammad said to them: 'Had you not accepted Islam I would have cast your heads under your feet," (p.134).
Dr. 'Afifi Abdul-Fahah, in his book, The Spirit of Islamic Religion, writes: "Islam has approved war so that the Word of God becomes supreme. This is war for the cause of God (Holy War)," (p.382), and "Islamic law demands that before Muslims start fighting infidels (unbelievers), they first deliver the message of Islam to them. It was proven that the prophet never fought people before he called them to embrace Islam first," (p. 384).
Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, in his writings, states: "When the prophet migrated from Mecca to Medina, God ordered him to fight those who fought him only. Then when the Chapter of Repentance was revealed, God commanded His prophet to fight anyone who did not become a Muslim from among the Arabs, whether (that person) fought him or not."
The Lights of Revelation, a commentary on the Qur'an declares: "Fight Jews and Christians because they violated the origin of their faith and they do not believe in the religion of the truth, namely Islam, which abrogated all other religions. Fight them...
The Ordinances of the Qur'an (part 2, p. 50) declares: "The apostle of God killed and captured (many) of the people of the Book [Christians and Jews] until some of them embraced Islam..."
The Book of the Islamic State by Taqiy alDin, states: "The foreign policy of Islamic states must be to carry the Islamic mission to the world by way of holy war. This process has been established through the course of the ages... This process has never been changed at all. The apostle Muhammad, from the time he founded the state in the city Yathrib, prepared an army and began holy war to remove the physical barriers which hinder the spread of Islam," (pps.112-113).
http://www.yourkingdomcome.com/jihad.htm
Yes, this is not a Muslim link, but the scholars quoted are all Muslim scholars. Do the following search: Mohammed "commanded to fight the people" You will get numerous pages of documentation on this.
Islamic links do not cover this about the prophet, mainly because their goal is to win converts and you don't do that by revealing the facts about jihad and the prophet. You do that after you've gained the upper hand and have a nation under your power.

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2004 2:19 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
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