Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,419 Year: 3,676/9,624 Month: 547/974 Week: 160/276 Day: 34/23 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Abortion
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 71 of 264 (238537)
08-30-2005 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by iano
08-30-2005 8:24 AM


Better be safe than sorry, innocent until proven guilty, look before you leap, live to fight another day. There is ample in our experience to say to us: "if you don't know, play it safe"
Quite right. So until you can prove the existence of this "soul" thing we'll keep right on erring on the side of caution and letting women have free choice over their bodies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by iano, posted 08-30-2005 8:24 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by iano, posted 08-30-2005 9:17 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 74 of 264 (238552)
08-30-2005 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by iano
08-30-2005 9:17 AM


Er...who mentioned soul? 'Mind' was the word used. And we all agree we have one of those and we all (until objective evidence indicates otherwise) agree that the mind hasn't been shown to solely reside in the brain (as opposed to use the mechanical brain to carry out it's will). The mind could be a completely natural occurring event. It doesn't (for the sake of this discussion) necessarily need Goddidit.
If you're not assigning the mind to the brain, you're assigning it to a supernatural element - we usually call that hypothetical supernatural entity "soul". There is no competing naturalistic explaination.
Trouble is the naturalistic explaination has a wealth of empirical evidence on it's side; while the supernatural one has pure speculation and a big pile of philosophical problems on the other.
You're acting like in the absence of absolute proof both explainations are equal. This is not so. In every single case where a phenomena has been explained it has been explained by a naturalistic phenomena. Not once in the history of the world has a supernatural explanation triumphed. Not only that but the naturalistic side actually has evidence for it; while the supernaturalistic side has none.
I'll repeat a question posed earlier. If the arbitary line is drawn at say 25 weeks and a premature baby of 22 weeks is born and is kept alive for a week by medicine and is progressing well. Can it be killed (aborted) at that point because it is still under the cut of point?
No. It's been born; it's no longer placing a physical burden on the mother. Abortion is about the mother; not the fetus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by iano, posted 08-30-2005 9:17 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by iano, posted 08-30-2005 9:57 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 81 of 264 (238569)
08-30-2005 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by iano
08-30-2005 9:57 AM


That something isn't known does not (and I doubt that I have ever said otherwise) automatically mean the supernatural is where it stems from. Science doesn't know where the mind stems from and would probably not come knocking on the door of the supernatural for an answer. "Don't know" is simply "don't know".
Science does "know" where mind comes from - it's from the brain. What Science doesn't know is how mind comes from brain - if, indeed, that be a meaningful distinction. You're argument relies on the mind being a seperate and independent entity from the physical development of the body; the only candidate for that is a supernatural soul.
Pure Scientism-speak here and later. And only Scientism-adherents (who form a minority in the world) make such statements. When empiricism can be shown - empirically - to be the best or only way to know anything about everything (and I mean in ALL areas of human activity) then we can review the actuality behind this Statement of Faith.
There's no Scientism in my statement at all. We do have a lot of empirical evidence for mind being a product of brain; Chiroptera details some in his post. We know activity in the brain both reflects and affects mental states; we can watch emotional responses in the brain, pin down areas related to memory, speech and vision, we can see how damage to the brain impaires mental process and the inbibing of drugs produces emotional and mental states and artefacts. These things are well established. Dualism, meanwhile, has never come up with decent answers to philosophical questions posed 350 years ago let alone the ones posed by modern science.
If you're referring to my later statement. Please, give me a single counter-example.
Just because you believe something, even heartfeltly MJ, it doesn't mean it's true.
Well slap me with a kipper and call me Sally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by iano, posted 08-30-2005 9:57 AM iano has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 121 of 264 (239494)
09-01-2005 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by iano
08-31-2005 3:34 PM


So your objection is: people are using abortion to help maintain the lifestyle they want? To which, I reply duh - that's the point!
Maintaining freedom of choice about anything (not just a woman choosing what happens to her body) is all about letting people make the choices they want so they can have the lifestyle they want. It assumes that, in most cases, the person best able to decide the best course of action for them is themselves.
I don't see anything faintly disturbing about the fact people are exercising their right to choose in order to get the lifestyle they want. There's nothing childish about that; it's stepping up to the plate and making the decision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by iano, posted 08-31-2005 3:34 PM iano has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024