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Author Topic:   Abortion
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2266 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 211 of 264 (262522)
11-22-2005 6:24 PM


legally i'm prochoice.

personally. i hope i never have to think about it.

but then i've been accused of supporting eugenics...


Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 212 of 264 (262895)
11-24-2005 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by macaroniandcheese
11-22-2005 6:24 PM


I'm pro-choice because it is not my place to make that decision for anyone else.

I can participate in an intelligent and complete discussion of alternative and related effects, but not in the decision process of others.

Seeing as I am not likely to have an abortion that leaves me out of any such decision making.

De facto that leaves me pro-choice as the only logical position.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 213 of 264 (273509)
12-28-2005 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Nuggin
08-31-2005 12:23 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
It seems to me that being against sexual education and brith control is to directly support unwanted pregnancy and to indirectly support an increased number of abortions.

If you are REALLY pro-life life then you MUST be pro birth-control.

Abstinence is an unnatural and quite frankly unhealthy way to live life.

If the pro-life crowd REALLY cared about killing babies they would be the biggest proponents of sexual education and birth control on the planet. Since they are not, I am forced to conclude that the pro-life movement (which of course DOES NOT include all pro-lifers) is completely dishonest and really cares nothing for children's lives.

Sex is healthy, sex is good for you, sex is natural...... ESPECIALLY using modern birth control (and things like condoms to keep disease from spreading). There is no good reason to limit responsible sexual behavior. In fact it is unnatural and quite frankly silly.

I have no clue why so much of American society treats sex like a 12 year old would.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 219 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-28-2005 5:49 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has responded
 Message 233 by Ben!, posted 12-29-2005 9:10 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2266 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 214 of 264 (273520)
12-28-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
12-28-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
brilliant.

This message is a reply to:
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roxrkool
Member
Posts: 1495
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 215 of 264 (273523)
12-28-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
12-28-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
I have no clue why so much of American society treats sex like a 12 year old would.
It's that damn Puritanical mindset that just won't go away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 12-28-2005 12:30 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has responded

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2266 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 216 of 264 (273535)
12-28-2005 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by bobbins
11-04-2005 12:02 AM


Re: A Couple of Points
the funny thing is that people would disagree with you. there are some amount of crazy people who think that a severe disability should not preclude a right to life. i would tend to agree with them except that i know how very severe disabilities can be. the point is that there should be a choice for those who feel that the suffering of the patient (for want of a better word) and his family would be too great.

but then i have autistic friends and may myself have a neuroatypical spectrum disorder... i hate to think what they'd do with that.


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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 217 of 264 (273558)
12-28-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by roxrkool
12-28-2005 1:02 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
I would posit that it IS this very puritanical mindset that is responsible for many of the problems that it is seeking to prevent.

What is the surest way to get young people to have sex?

- Tell them not to.

What is the surest way to keep your children from being honest about their sexuality with you?

- Make them feel as if their sexuality is wrong and immoral

(more offtopic here)

What is the surest way of getting underage people to drink?

- Forbid them from drinking

etc, etc.

If we really want to reduce the number of abortions, unwanted pregnancies, etc.... we can take some very simple steps.

- teach young people that sex is natural, wonderful and most importantly NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF. (I mean seriously, people still think masturbation is wrong???? Is this the year 1252?)

- instruct young people that when making decisions about whether to enter into sexual activity they should carefully consider the consequences and make their decision accordingly. (However, we MUST not teach them that sex is wrong, dirty, etc)

- Be very open about birth control and it uses and applications. Young people are going to have sex, PERIOD. IF you don't believe this you are blind to reality. We should encourage them to make their own decisions and be reponsible about it.

We must let young people make their own decisions from a position of knowledge.... NOT a position of ignorance.

Not only are abstinence only programs illogical, immoral and unnatural they are causing more unwanted preganancies and contributing to the spread of deadly diseases such as AIDS.

(this will be offtopic)....

I wonder how Jesus would feel about his supposed followers refusing to help fund groups that are trying to distribute condoms to people in African to save thousands and even millions of lives?


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13369
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 218 of 264 (273601)
12-28-2005 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
12-28-2005 2:55 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
Mini Ditka writes:

I wonder how Jesus would feel about his supposed followers refusing to help fund groups that are trying to distribute condoms to people in African to save thousands and even millions of lives?

A condom does not prevent the spread of the Aids virus. It would be like trying to stop a BB with a tennis racket. The virus can easily penetrate the pores in the latex.

This idea of patching up flawed human moralities with a band-aid approach to the problems is very humanistic. (IMHO, very flawed!)

I wonder what Jesus WOULD think? He is presently available, should anyone wish to ask Him. (Prayer is off topic in an abortion thread, I know! [/sarcasm.] )


This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13369
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 219 of 264 (273604)
12-28-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
12-28-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
Mini Ditka writes:

There is no good reason to limit responsible sexual behavior.

The key word is responsible. When kids are told that sex is natural and normal, they treat it like a snack...like eating candy instead of preparing a wholesome meal.

Casual relationships slowly kill the soul. There is nothing healthy about becoming briefly intimate with all of the girls at the club!

Young Adults need to be taught that intimacy is not cheap. It is more than pleasent, and it is designed to be lifelong.

This message has been edited by Phat, 12-28-2005 03:49 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 12-28-2005 12:30 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has responded

Replies to this message:
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 220 of 264 (273612)
12-28-2005 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Thugpreacha
12-28-2005 5:42 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
A condom does not prevent the spread of the Aids virus. It would be like trying to stop a BB with a tennis racket. The virus can easily penetrate the pores in the latex.

This idea of patching up flawed human moralities with a band-aid approach to the problems is very humanistic. (IMHO, very flawed!)

That is total and complete BULLSHIT. I apologize for my rudeness, but spreading LIES like this really prevents us from saving more lives. Are you trying to get people killed with this crap?

Sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV
Latex condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are highly effective in preventing transmission of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. In addition, correct and consistent use of latex condoms can reduce the risk of other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including discharge and genital ulcer diseases. While the effect of condoms in preventing human papillomavirus (HPV) infection is unknown, condom use has been associated with a lower rate of cervical cancer, an HPV-associated disease.

This is STRAIGHT from our own CDC

http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/latex.htm

Please stick to judging your own morality. You certainly have no right or authority to judge anyone elses.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-28-2005 5:42 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31764
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 221 of 264 (273613)
12-28-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Thugpreacha
12-28-2005 5:42 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
A condom does not prevent the spread of the Aids virus.

According to the FDA that is not exactly correct. While a condom is not a 100% assurance against transmitting STDs, it certainly is effective in most cases. No one has ever claimed it is 100% effective anyway.

To oppose distribution of condoms and universal and pervasive sex education is without a doubt one of the most unchristian actions I can think of. It is essential that we do all that is in our power to help others. That certainly includes education, including explaining to kids from 10-94 that sex without a condom is a far greater risk than sex with a condom.

FDA educational material on condoms


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 641 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 222 of 264 (273616)
12-28-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Thugpreacha
12-28-2005 5:42 PM


Not true Phat. Condoms, used properly can prevent the spread of the AIDS virus. That bit about the virus being able to pass thru the pores is a scare tactic from 13 years ago.


Asgara
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!

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This message is a reply to:
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 223 of 264 (273624)
12-28-2005 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Thugpreacha
12-28-2005 5:49 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
The key word is responsible. When kids are told that sex is natural and normal, they treat it like a snack...like eating candy instead of preparing a wholesome meal.

Casual relationships slowly kill the soul. There is nothing healthy about becoming briefly intimate with all of the girls at the club!

Young Adults need to be taught that intimacy is not cheap. It is more than pleasent, and it is designed to be lifelong.

Says who? What's wrong with casual relationships between consenting adults?

(I hope this isn't off-topic.... it seems to me that teen and/or unwanted pregnancies are very relevant to abortion)

Actually, there is research showing your baseless opinions are totally incorrect. Let's take a look at some actual research on this subject.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_39/ai_87080446

Experts from the U.S. in adolescent health, teen journalists, and graduate students participated in the study tour and worked together to write a report of their findings. The three countries visited--The Netherlands, Germany, and France--all have significantly lower rates of STDs and teen pregnancy than does the U.S. In these countries teens are older, on average, than teens in the U.S. when they have their first sexual intercourse.

Generally, the article describes how most of western europe has less teen pregnancy and teen STDs than the US.

I wonder why? Let's see

Adolescent sexual health in these countries is based on values of rights, responsibility, and respect. Government and the general society consider it not only a duty to provide accurate information and confidential contraceptive services to the young, but also that provision of such services and information to adolescents is part of their rights. There is no attempt to motivate behavior of teenagers through a collective effort to demand abstinence. Thus, the goal is not to prevent adolescents from having sex but to educate and thereby empower them to make responsible decisions. By respecting the independence and privacy of adolescents the expectation is that, in return, the majority will act responsibly to try to avoid pregnancy and STDs. The more tolerant attitude toward sexual expression of teenagers also makes it easier for them to get the services they need. Teenagers do not have to feel guilty or ashamed of using contraceptives. In fact, they will more likely feel they have been irresponsible if they fail to use it.

Interesting, so they use an open dialog with teens to empower and educate them and allow them to make their own decisions.

A similar approach has also been adopted in the Nordic countries, and it also has not led to promiscuity. In the Nordic countries as well as the previously mentioned study tour countries, public health policy is based on public health research and input from well-trained sex educators, not on political or religious definitions of moral behavior. In addition, these countries provide national health insurance that covers most of the costs of contraceptives and related services. The low cost and easy accessibility of services help adolescents take advantage of preventive health measures.

The Netherlands deserves attention, for it is the western country that has had the lowest rates of unplanned pregnancy, abortion, and teen pregnancy for quite some time (Jones et al., 1988; Ketting, 1994; Ketting & Visser, 1994; Singh & Darroch, 2000). In 1995 the teenage abortion and pregnancy rates in the U.S. were about seven times that of The Netherlands (29.2 vs. 4.0 and 83.6 vs. 12.2, respectively; Singh & Darroch, 2000). Dutch policy makers use research, pragmatism, and an ethics approach that tries to teach responsibility in sexual decision making as the basis for their sexual health programs. The goal is to allow an open discussion about sexual issues and encourage adolescents to talk about sex and topics that interest them. The attitude of the government is that both the public and families have a responsibility to help young people avoid unwanted pregnancies and STDs. The goal is to instill a sense of responsibility in the young and to give them the knowledge to act accordingly. It is also important that the general public is tolerant and accepting of teenage sexual experiences. The view is that it is impossible and quite ridiculous to try to prevent teenagers from having sex. Thus, the sensible action is to prepare them to act responsibly. Contrary to the view held by many in the U.S., this liberal attitude seems to be consistent with the findings that Dutch teenagers have fewer partners than their American counterparts and have their first sexual intercourse at an older age--15.8 for USA and 17.7 for The Netherlands (Berne & Huberman, 1999). Condom use does not vary greatly in the two countries but what distinguishes The Netherlands is that sexually active young adults use more effective contraception such as the pill at a much higher rate: 67% of sexually active female adolescents used the pill at their most recent intercourse in contrast to 20.5% in the U.S.(Berne & Huberman, 1999).

Wow, so this seems to works in many countries....

Research (Rademakers, 1994; Vanwesenbeeck, Van Zessen, Ingham, Jaramazovic, & Stevens, 1999) in The Netherlands in the 1980s and 1990s supports the view that adolescents with good interactional competence skills are better at avoiding high-risk sexual behavior. In the Rademachers study, girls who had experienced an unwanted pregnancy had given the boy control over taking initiatives in decisions regarding both the use of contraceptives and choice of sexual activity. More recent research by Vanwesenbeeck et al. (1999) and Papp, Kontula, and Kosonen (2000) supports the importance of good interactional skills for avoiding and reducing risk behavior. Thus, a major topic to include in sex educational curricula is the teaching of interactional competence skills to both girls and boys.

A comparative study of family planning services in the U.S., Great Britain, The Netherlands, and Sweden provides insight into the difference in effectiveness of such services. Cromer and McCarthy (1999) conducted interviews with 75 key informants (clinicians, politicians, public health administrators, social and behavioral scientists, and antiabortion activists) in these four countries. Interviewees were asked to describe the optimal family planning services for adolescents. These included comprehensive and multidisciplinary care provided in confidence by nonjudgmental staff with good counseling and communication skills. Interviewees in The Netherlands and Sweden described good coordination between family planning services and local schools, whereas informants in the U.S. reported parental resistance to such coordination. Government support and funding were considered to be adequate in The Netherlands and Sweden but in the U.S. informants felt they received very little governmental, medical, or familial support for their work. Family planning staff in The Netherlands and Sweden had high job-related prestige and had a positive view of their work situation. This feeling was lacking in the U.S.

I don't want to copy the whole article (it's quite long and that would be bad form!), but you get the idea.

So basically, we should be doing EXACTLY what I said. Teaching kids that sex is natural in a non-judgemental way... including teaching them about contraceptives.

If you don't think sex is natural and normal... what do you consider it? Immoral and freaky? Abnormal and wrong? Dirty and disgusting?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-28-2005 5:49 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13369
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 224 of 264 (273630)
12-28-2005 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
12-28-2005 5:59 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
Mini Ditka writes:

Please stick to judging your own morality. You certainly have no right or authority to judge anyone elses.

I certainly have a right to decide how my tax dollars will be spent, though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 12-28-2005 5:59 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has responded

Replies to this message:
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 225 of 264 (273633)
12-28-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Thugpreacha
12-28-2005 6:26 PM


Re: Morality and punishing sluts
I certainly have a right to decide how my tax dollars will be spent, though.

We definitely agree there. So my question becomes... do you like that your tax dollars are currently supporting policies which are leading to MORE abortion?

Abstinence only education leads to MORE abortion.

Refusing to teach young people about proper/responsible contraceptive use leads to MORE abortion.

If you support the current administration you are supporting policies which lead to MORE abotions.

It's up to you if you wish to support policies that curb abortion or not...

(I don't know if you are even pro-life or not.... From reading your earlier posts you certainly don't promote policies that would reduce abortions)

Cheers


This message is a reply to:
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