'Modeling' recent debates using chess

Haven't been to the coffee house in a while. I'm surprised this has turned into an actual chess thread.Hi Percy,The shortest mate that I'm aware of is:1. f3. . .e5(or e6)
2. g4. . .Qh4++Black mates on the 2nd move. It has been a long while since I've messed with any chess puzzles but maybe someone will remember: Wasn't this known as the "Scholar's mate"?P.S. to DNAunion: Yes, I am aware that trading the rook for the knight in that position assures the stalemate. My point was that you had to have the opportunity for the double attack to begin with. Since Nf6 was obviously black's last move prior to your double attack on the knight & pawn with your rook, I would be interested to know what space this knight occupied prior to this move and if the move to f6 was a capturing move or just a move to a clear square. Those are the details that will make all the difference in the analysis.Namaste'Amlodhi

The fastest mate occurs in two moves (Black mates White on his second move). I won't post it since the mod decided to hide EC's solution. I believe it's called Fools Mate. The funny thing is (at least EC may find this funny), is that on an episode of Columbo a world champion killed his opponent the match was with and while giving a simultaneous, Columbo was questioning the player. He was so rattled that he fell into the Fools Mate! Sorry, but there's no way a world champion would ever non-intentionally fall prey to that mate.There's also a quicky called Scholar's Mater, I believe.Here's a mate on move 3 I just made up.1. c4 Nc6
2. e3 Nb4
3. Ne2 Nd3#Here's one from a "real line": one that has at least some chance of occurring in a real game.1. f4 e5
2. fxe5 d6
3. exd6 Bxd6
4. Nf3 g5
5. h3 Bg3#

If you read the previous post to my blanked out solution I was told I could go ahead and post it.Dope!

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P.S. to DNAunion: Yes, I am aware that trading the rook for the knight in that position assures the stalemate. My point was that you had to have the opportunity for the double attack to begin with. Since Nf6 was obviously black's last move prior to your double attack on the knight & pawn with your rook, I would be interested to know what space this knight occupied prior to this move and if the move to f6 was a capturing move or just a move to a clear square. Those are the details that will make all the difference in the analysis.

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Here's the position a move earlier.White:
King on g2
Rook on g8
Pawns on h4Black:
King on e4
Bishop on d4
Knight on g4
Pawns on h6What can Black do to win? Obviously, I am threatening the knight.1. ... h5
2. Rg5 Nf6
3. Rg6 Nd5 (if 3. ... Ng4 then 4. Rg5 again)
4. Rg5 Nf4+
5. Kh1
followed by
6. Rxh5 =1. ... Kf5 (or Kf4)
2. Rxg4 =So Black cannot protect the knight...he needs to move it.1. ... Nf6
2. Rg6 = (which occurred in the game)1. ... Ne5
2. Re8 = (intending 3. Rxe5)1. ... Ne3+! ("box")
2. Kh3
From this position, it's going to be hard for Black to win. He has to always avoid White's giving up his rook for the knight, which makes it hard for him to approach and win White's pawn...and Black's pawn is weak. It would be an interesting position to play out.**********************************
Let me point out that this was a "blitzish" game.
I remember the opening moves.1. d4 d5
2. c4 dxc4
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. e3 b5
5. a4 c6
6. Nc3 b4
7. Na2 b3
8. Nc3 Ba6
9. Ne5 e6
10. Bxc4 Bxc4
11. Nxc4 c5
12. Qxb3 cxd4
13. Qb5+ Nbd7
14. exd4 Rb8
15. Qa6 Rc8
16. Bf4 Nb6
17. Nxb6 axb6
18. O-O Rc6
19. Rad1 Bd6
20. Qb5 Qd7
21. d5 Rxc3
22. Qxd7+ Nxd7
23. bxc3 Bxf4
24. Rfe1 Ke7
25. dxe6 fxe6
26. g3 Bd6
27. f4 e5
28. fxe5 Nxe5I can't remember the next several moves. But withing a few moves we ended up at:White:
King on f1
Rooks on a6, d1
Pawns on g3, h2Black:
King on e6
Rook on c3
Bishop on d6
Knight on d3
Pawns on g7, h7My threat is 1. Rxd6+ Kxd6 2. Ke2. Black decided to trade down with.1. ... Rc1
2. Rxc1 Nxc1
3. Kg2And in a few more moves, we ended up in the orginal position I brought up.As we can see, several errors were made in the opening and middle game, but it was a blitz game, where I played the move that popped into my mind first, without analysis.[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 04-01-2004]

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DU and EC, ... if you know other easy puzzles...

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I used to like composing problems, just for fun, sometimes with my chess friend. Here are a couple.I would prefer that EC not reply: I think we all know that he could solve these quite easily.***************************
(1) This one has a lesson: a theme that shows up a lot in actual games.White to move and mateWhite:
King on d1
Queen on g4
Rook on h1
Bishop on d2
Knights on a3, e6
Pawns on a2, f2, g2, h2Black:
King on c8
Queen on b2
Rook on a8, h8
Knight on a1
Pawn on a7, b7, c7, d6, e7, g6, h7****************************
(2)
White to move and mateWhite:
King on c1
Queen on c2
Rooks on d1, g1
Knight on e7
Pawns on a3, b2, f6, h4Black:
King on h8
Queen on a4
Rooks on a8, c8
Bishops on b7, e5
Pawns on b4, g7, h7[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 04-01-2004]

I feel left out.Here's one I just thought about. Though I think I may have dug it up out of memory so it may not be original.(PS I am doing this in my head so apologies if an error - but I am sure I think - lol)White:
pawns h2 b3
rooks b7 f1
knight e4
queen f2
king h1Black:
pawns a5 g5 d4
rooks e3 d8
bishops e7 e8
knight h6
queen h3
king g8White to move and mate in 3.Have fun!!!It's actually pretty easy.

Solve it instantly...am I allowed to post the solution?

I don't care - post away.It is rather easy.

1. Qf8+ Bxf8 2. Nf6+ Kh8 3. Rh7#

Okay, all play! This was our masterpiece.: we believe it's mate in 16!!White to move and mateWhite:
King on h2
Queen on c4
Rooks on c8, f7
Bishop on c2
Knight on d6
Pawns on e4, g2, h4Black:
King on g6
Queen on a1
Rooks on a8, g4
Bishop on f6
Knights on e5, g8
Panws on g7, h5

Hello DNAunion, etal,Late tonight, but I believe I have found some interesting lines for the first game you illustrated and will post some tomorrow. Also, I had (at one time) gotten pretty well burnt-out on chess puzzles but your last one (with, perhaps, mate in 16) looks more interesting, so I think I will take a look at that one tomorrow as well.In the meantime, for those who enjoy interesting moves:Crushing move by Bobby Fischer in 1965 U.S. Championship tournament, for anyone who may enjoy finding it.White position:Kh1
Qg6
Rg1
Be4
pawns on a2,b2,c3,f3,f5,g7,h4Black position:Kg8
Qc8
Rd8
Nh7
pawns on a6,b5,c4,f6,f4White's (Fischer's) move.Amlodhi

Solution to problem 1: Force Black King to hem himself in between his rooks, then mate with Knight. Really neat puzzle!!!I'll look at the other later.--Percy

Took me a couple of seconds because I started by looking at Qxh7+, which does nothing (well, it loses for White, but most winning combinations begin by "losing"). Once I rejected that I immediately saw 1. Qe8+ and wins.1. Qe8+ Rxe8
2. Bd5+ Re6
3. Bxe6+ Qxe6
4. fxe6That's as far as I needed to get mentally to see the win. The rest I worked on by physically moving pieces around the board.White threatens 5. e7 so ...4. ... f5
5. e7 (other moves win as well) Nf6
6. Rg6 Ne8
7. h5and White just marches his h-pawn up and wins. For example,7. ... a5 (7. ... Nc7 8. Rc6!? Ne8 9. Rc8)
8. h6 b4
9. h7+ Kxh7
10. g8(Q)#[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 04-02-2004]

You got it. The general principle is called Philidor's legacy, I believe.

Hello DNAunion, etal,RE: Mate in 16.With White's crushing move, Black doesn't have a chance. Very impressive though, as it required perfect play on both sides, i.e. for White to retain the initiative, and for Black to hold out for 16 moves.White to move and mateWhite:
King on h2
Queen on c4
Rooks on c8, f7
Bishop on c2
Knight on d6
Pawns on e4, g2, h4Black:
King on g6
Queen on a1
Rooks on a8, g4
Bishop on f6
Knights on e5, g8
Panws on g7, h5The crushing move: Rxg7Thus: Rxg7+....Bxg7 If black moves Kh6 then:
Nf5++If black moves Kxg7 then:
Qxg8+........Kh6
Nf5++ Qf7+......Kh7 If black moves Kh6 then:
Nf5+............Kh7
Qxg8+.........Kg6
Qxg7++If black moves Nxf7 then:
e5+.............Kh6
Nxf7++ Qxg8+....Kg6 If black moves Kh6 then:
Nf5+............Kg6
Qxg7++ Qf7+.......Kh7 If black moves Nxf7 then:
e5+.............Kh6
Nxf7++If black moves Kh6 then:
Nf5+............Kh7
Qxh5+.........Bh6
Qxh6++Qxh5+.......Bh6
Rc7+..........Rg7
Rxg7+........Kxg7
Nf5+...........Kg8 If black moves Kh7 or Kh8 then:
Qxh6+........kg8
Qg7++If black moves Kf8 then:
Qxh6+........Ke8
Qe6+..........Kd8
Qe7+..........Kc8
Nd6+..........Kb8
Qb7++Bb3+........Nf7
Nxh6+......Kg7 If black moves Kf8 then Qxf7++
If black moves Kh8 then:
Nf5+...........Kg8
Qxf7+.........Kh8
Qh5++Nf5+........Kf6 If black moves Kf6 then Qxf7++
If black moves Kg8 then:
Qxf7+..........Kh8
Qh5++Qxf7+...........Ke5
Qd5+........... Kf4
Qd2+............Ke5
Qd6+............Kxe4
Bc2++ Namaste'Amlodhi