A Very Gutsy Lady

I meant that you can be black and white in several ways. One way is to kill yourself in a crowd and take with you as many people as you can. Another is to voice a black and white opinion. I know in whose company I'd rather be. You mean like Khomeini, Bin Laden, and Ahmadinedjad, to name a few? I think you should reconsider your priorities. Think about what would happen if millions of people would listen to Wafa Sultan and act on it. Picture that? Now imagine what would happen if those same millions would listen to, and act on what islamic extremists say. Which scenario would you rather see happening? I'm sorry, are you describing fundamentalist Islam? No it isn't. She said:

quote:

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I am not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. I am a secular human being. I do not believe in the supernatural, but I respect others' right to believe in it.

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You are free to worship whoever you want, but other people's beliefs are not your concern, whether they believe that the Messiah is God, son of Mary, or that Satan is God, son of Mary. Let people have their beliefs.

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She is most definitely not saying that she is right and everyone else is wrong. Actually, I was talking about the masses who are kept ignorant by their "spiritual leaders". So much for a spiritual leader who keeps his subjects in the dark, in effect teaching them to think in black and white terms. Well, obviously! If I say " 'moderate' is not a term I'd use", then that is my opinion. And my opinon is based on the fact that I seldom hear of crowds of moderate muslims demanding that extremists stop making them look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world. Either most muslims silently agree with the extremists, or they don't care. Neither position would deserve the description 'moderate', in my opinion.Edited by Parasomnium, : Adding a bit of flourish.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

It is a pretty well known fact that not every musslim thinks this way, so I highly doubt she means every musslim, but is refering to those who are taking the actions of defending their faith.She believes everyone should have a right to believe what they want. and not go to war about it. Many musslims feel this way, and will ignore those verses in the koran that tell them to destroy all those that do not believe what they believe. I realized I said that later on in the day, I meant to say arab, or whatever she is. She does not believe in the supernatural, thanks for pointing that out.Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

Yes, I made a mistake in saying that, I was very clear on the fact that she does not believe in the supernatural. Thanks.

It seems like you think I am defending extremist Islam. Especially when you say stuff like: What I am saying is that the problem that those guys make in this world need to be addressed appropriatly. An innappropriate, and I believe inneffective, way to do this is to color all Moslems the same as you do someone like Khomeini. Yes that also applies to fundamentalist Islam in fact. Once again you seem to think I am defending the likes of the infamous people you listed above. All I am doing is trying to speak out for the majority of Moslems that don't fit her line in the ground mentality that they are all backwards and need to get their heads examined. I wasn't talking about her take on religious freedom. That is something that is redeeming in her rant. Please Para, you are distracting from the issues I am raising here. I specifically am talking about her blanket condemntaion of all Moslems in comparison to her absolute praise of the west. You are arguing with me and I don't disagree with you. I don't think it is wrong to go out and condem these guys. I do think that condemning them isn't going to make them stop. I do think that stereotyping all Moslems is not going to help the situation.Once again I think you are blowing this up into things that I wasn't talking about. Everything I said was in relation to HER generalization and stereotyping. There is also a few inconsistencies and innaccuracies used as justification for her views based on what seems to be an ignorance of history. Let me repeat the last paragraph of my last reply to you. You didn't seem to want to respond to that even though I was trying very hard to clarify myself for you. That is my point. There is nothing about praising or protecting extremists. I am also not condemning her views on religious freedom and human rights; those are just fine.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

First of all, there is no such verse in the Koran. So it is real easy for most Moslems to ignore a bunch of verses that don't exist. I am thinking maybe you want to rephrase that or take that back. That seems awfuly racist rat. Replacing with Being an arab, I take a bit of offense to that. I am thinking you didn't mean it that way though.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I am no expert on the koran, but some siple searching reveals these verses. Maybe you can elborate on just what they are supposed to mean.[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.[66.9] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.[5.17] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth? And Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them; He creates what He pleases; and Allah has power over all things,5.73 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.(that means all Christians are disbelievers)"4.101": And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.It is to me very clear who their enemies are, and what they should do about it, according to some of the teachings of the koran.I thought this was a pretty well known fact? I don't know what she is. It was on an arab television show, so my best guess is arab. I did not mean anything offensive by trying to guess what nationality she was, and it has nothing to do with you, or how I feel about them. I do not catoregize people by nationality, but how they act, and what they say. Color, or belief has no bearing on how I treat or look towards someone. What nationality was she?

Jazz, you know this is not true. Many Moslems may refuse to read such verses literally but there are those who do, and I gave you a quote from Khomeini showing that he certainly did, and upbraided other Muslim leaders for ignoring the verses about killing.

Pretty much all of those are taken out of context.Starting with the first. The beginning of Sura 9 reads: If you read the WHOLE sura, you will find out that yes they are allowed to fight the idolators but only the ones who for whom you are at war. In fact verse 6 in that very same sura reads. 47.4 is not a call to arms. It is talking about what you should do when you are already in battle.66.9, go read the whole beginning of sura 66. It is not a call to arms. Here it is with 3 different translations.Page Not FoundI don't even know why you quoted 5.175.73 - the painfull chaistisment will be from Allah.Of course Christians are considered idolators. Moslems dont believe that God could ever be man. So worhshipping someone who was a man is idolatry plain and simple.A different translation of 4.101 reads: It is talking about being under eminent threat of attack. The early Moslems fought a lot with pagan tribes around the region.There is a lot in the Koran that commands violence. But it is always violence against those who have declared Moslems as enemies (those who have not made an agreement).This is also in contrast to the Koran as a whole. Just like you take Bible verses in the context of the Bible as a whole, Koranic verses also apply to the theology that you garner from it as a whole.A good Moslems is supposed to be careful about when to use violence. yet the next verse says. Unlike Christianty, Islam specifically allows war against people who threaten or make war against you. It is one of the reason I chose not to become a Moslem. It can be interpreted too loosely and mosts extremists do that.The point to take home here is that simply the majority of Moslems don't need to "ignore" anything like you said. They can get by just find by taking their theology in context. There is nothing inherently wrong with those verses.Religious texts in general, the Bible, Koran, etc, can all be used to support weird things if you cherry pick whatever you want out of them. The Bible has been used to justify all kinds of bad things. But you know as well as I that in context, there is very little support that anyone could take for those things if you look at the Bible as a whole. The exact same thing holds true for the koran.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Jazz you can insist on your interpretation of the Koran all you like, and prove that millions of Moslems see it the same way you do, and you may even be right, but it makes absolutely no difference! Because OTHER Moslems with just as much authority to interpret the Koran and plenty of historical justification for their views, interpret the jihadic passages as commands to make war on the infidel and they are the ones who are causing all the terror in the world. You simply CAN'T claim the violence is not in the Koran, because that is where THEY find it. Khomeini certainly did and he was no fringe lunatic Muslim. He led millions.

If you are interested in bringing your supporting evidence rather than your continued rhetoric to this thread then we can discuss it. You have made it perfectly clear though in the recent past that you had no intention of bothering yourself with doing anything more than elucidating your say-so.Either engage the discussion appropriatly or get out of the pool.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

You actually need supporting evidence that the terrorists interpret the Koran to justify their killing? You must be joking. And don't talk to me in that tone of voice.

Whatever Faith. Just keep misinterpreting me all you like. It is not making me look bad when you do it. Respect is earned not demanded.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Respect is neither earned nor demanded, it is civilized behavior.

I said that, not because I think you are defending extremist islam, but because you are protesting against a person whom you characterize as "people who get to flap their tongue on large audience news networks just because their ideas are fixed and often extreme", and I found that description rather more applicable to the illustrious trio I mentioned than to Wafa Sultan.I think that if you have problems with people whose ideas are "fixed and often extreme", then I think you should be protesting first and foremost against Khomeini et al. That's what I meant with getting your priorities right. And that's what I keep waiting for from "moderate" muslims. That's good. Thank you. But what do you think of the scenario in which the stereotyped muslims get fed up with it, but actually realise that it's the fundamentalists among them who are causing the problem? Do you think that's possible? This is an honest question, I have no wish to antagonize you.I am sorry if I have offended you by ignoring this. I realize we are not too far apart in our opinions.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

Of course, of course. I was merely limiting the discussion to her since it was the topic of this thread. I'll take her and her opinions over those guys any day. At the very least, she has a MUCH greater respect for religious freedom and for basic human rights. I still stand by my opinion about her comments in isolation though. But if we are suddenly comparing her to Khomeini then I would say she is an angel. No those are fair questions and I think that is the right thing to do. I just don't think that the right way to do it is to continue to stereotype them. Any time you need a drastic change you need to outrage the masses in the middle. But you need to outrage them against the extremists; show them how they are different.What WS was doing though is grouping them for a common condemnation and at the same time raising the shared object of their disdain onto a fragile pedestal. The people are not stupid. They are still aggrivated by the west and they know that we don't have some monopoly over enlightenment, virtues, and freedom. They still believe in their religion and denegrating that CERTAINLY is not going to win any minds. No I don't think that we are that far apart. From the beginning I figured some of what was going on was knee jerk on both sides. I just have some major problems with some of what she said. At the very least, her motivation is commendable.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)