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Author | Topic: Does the evidence support the Flood? (attn: DwarfishSquints) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
No Nuggin, your wrong..
read this And we are just coming out of an ice age so all the continents arebeing pushed up out of the water and have been ever since the flood. Edited by LucyTheApe, : and/as Edited by LucyTheApe, : frd
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
bluegenes writes: Nothing you've quoted actually seems to disagree with Nuggin. 60-65 metres doesn't cover any mountains. Firstly Bluegenes, I'm a quadraped, sometimes I do walk upright for short stretches, but when I do, I always scrape my knuckles. Secondly I don't really mind the name Darwin for my favorite city, but I resent the fact that they changed the name of my University to "Charles Darwin" one month before I graduated". Thirdly and more to the point even the Himalayas were under water, the fossil hunters will vouch for that.
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
The Antarctica ice which is in the water DISPLACES the water it is in by roughly the same amount it contains. That's how displacement works. Here's an experiment to prove it... Thanks for the lecture on density I'll skip the experiment. Thanks anyway. However Nuggin, Antarctica IS A CONTINENT almost twice the size of Australia (and US) the ice is on average 2500 metres thick.
More importantly, I'd like to point out an interesting statement in your post - so I'll quote it again. quote: And we are just coming out of an ice age so all the continents are being pushed up out of the water and have been ever since the flood. You are claiming that there was a Biblical Flood. Which means you are a YEC and that the Earth is ~6000 years old.However, you are ALSO claiming that we are coming out of an ice age. When, EXACTLY, was this ice age? During the Flood? During the Exodus? Poor reasoning Nuggin. Claiming that there was a flood doesn't necessitate being a YEC. The claim that we are coming out of an ice age is made by the scientists. I'm just agreeing with them. I believe the ice age was before the flood, the flood finished it.
Can you give us the timeline you are using for these events? It's impossible for us to guess, since it's not based on any observable evidence. Was the Ice Age _before_ or _after_ Jesus? I think Jesus arrived a few thousand years after Noah who rode the flood out in his boat. Edited by LucyTheApe, : size counts Edited by LucyTheApe, : Tag
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
From the normal YEC perspective you would need to cram the entire ice age (not to mention all of the earlier ones) in the approximately 1,500 years between 6,000 and 4,500 years ago (the purported dates of the creation and the flood). Is this what you are claiming?
No. You're not listening. This has nothing to do with the age of the earth. This is about the flood. Edited by LucyTheApe, : Unless the grammar's right you're not taken seriously.
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
The flood is possible without taking into account antediluvian geology.
But anyway..
Coyote writes: This discussion about the flood brought up the last ice age. That forces you to deal with events that are known to have taken a long time--far longer than 1,500 years -- So who is it that knows . The fact is that your science is based on a set of assumptions. One of those is that the age of the earth is in the billions of years. I mean think about it; billions of years. Growth is exponential, if life has been around for billions of years we'd be knee deep in bones.
Coyote writes: One other minor problem you can address while you're at it: a global flood at 4,500 years ago would leave some evidence in the soils of that age, either through erosional/depositional features or discontinuities. Unfortunately for the flood belief, archaeological sites all over the world demonstrate continuity across that time period. I have excavated dozens of sites myself and established continuity of fauna and flora, soil deposition, human culture, and mitochondrial DNA across that 4,500 time period. My colleagues have done the same with many more sites. No flood. Tell me have you found evidence of a puddle? Maybe a creek overflowing or a river breaking its banks?Obviously you have been digging in spots that weren't washed away during the flood.
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
nuggin writes: Are you having trouble with your reading comprehension? I SPECIFICALLY differentiated between Antarctica ice which is on land verses ice which is on water. Nuggin, are you talking about the Antarctic ice shelf.
Nuggin writes: True, you COULD believe that the Earth was created 4.5 billion years ago. HOWEVER, you can NOT claim that there was a Flood AND that it occurred outside of the 6,000 year time scale. ?
Nuggin writes: WHEN? Did the Bible just forget to mention it? Where is your evidence for this reasoning? If it wasn't cold, why did God bother to make Adam and Eve fur coats before kicking them out of Eden.
Nuggin writes: Further, we KNOW that the Native American groups which were IN the US during the last Ice Age are the forefathers of CURRENT Native American groups (both from DNA evidence and linguistics). So what?
Nuggin writes: You think? Come on, you can do a lot better than that. This is you fantasy, you aren't bound by any evidence. You aren't beholden to the truth. You should be able to tell us what day of the week the Flood started. I'm not bound by anything, I'm free to think what I want.Day of the week? I'll have a guess and say Monday. Friday afternoon and a flood would be just too much. Edited by LucyTheApe, : font Edited by LucyTheApe, : damn tags Edited by LucyTheApe, : double damn
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
1) We should see a very large global layer of sediment. It would not necessarily be compeltely uniform (a global Flood would not necessarily transport sediment globally, even if this would be likely), but we should see a signle continuous global layer of sediment, and it should be extremely thick. Have you tried looking at the bottom of the oceans, that's where the rivers tend to flow.
2) The fossils contained in the sediment layer should be sorted primarily by bouyancy and ability to swim - organisms able to float should tend to be on top, and organisms that do not float should be on the bottom. This should starkly contrast with the sorting of fossils predicted by the Theory of Evolution. I would expect that the sediment would contain fossils in the order they were washed away.
3) Stone and metal tools should be found at the bottom of this layer, since they do not float. Stone and metal tools would be found where they were dropped.
4) We should see a very large number of human and animal remains in this layer, and then suddenly see almost no fossils at all immediately on top of this layer. Subsequent layers should show a gradual increase in remains as populations increased from the single-digits to global populations again. Your assuming that this is a single homogeneous layer.
5) Oceans and inland lakes should have a similar salinity, having been mixed in the very recent (geologically anyway) past. Without doing any maths I would guess that this level would be insignificantly low. And there's salt everywhere.
6) we should see genetic bottlenecks in all species, corresponding to a reduction in population size to single digits. These should all appear to have happened at roughly the same time across every existing species. Yes we should be able to trace all life back to a few mitochondrial lines. Genetics will teach us much in the coming years, I hope.
7) We should see a relatively similar distribution of species globally, and evidence of a migration from Mt. Arrarat, as all of the animals on the Ark migrated from that single location to their eventual destinations. The first animals to leave the ark could have been half way around the world within a few months without leaving any trace.
8) We should see an amount of water in reasonable locations (polar ice caps, for example) that could possibly have contributed to a global FLood sufficient to accomplish the task as described in the Bible. There's plenty of water, I thought that been established. Is that all you got. Think a bit harder and come up with something convincing.
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
You still have not dealt with the evidence I posted above, concerning several decades of archaeology I personally conducted. You just handwaved it away with some useless reference to digging in the wrong place or puddles. I have no idea about your digs or about digging full stop. I can't comment. You know infinitely more that I do in that regard. So I have to take your word that there was no flood based on your interpretation of your work. I refuse to do that. You don't convince me.
Don't even bother replying until you are willing to address the evidence I posted above. What did I miss.
I don't believe that all these species faded out over time due to natural selection. Disease, maybe, catastrophe more likely.
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
Meaning what? You do realize that as rivers flow they deposit silt and sediment? In a global flood, we should see all type of rock and silt mixed into one layer as all it would have deposited within a very short time. Nothing like this exists anywhere on the planet. We'd expect things to be dragged along based on their physics.
A hammer, which is relatively dense, but small, should stay where it was dropped. A rock which is big (large surface area) would be dragged away.
Except that Genesis states that the flood was very turbulent and chaotic, which would have mixed up organisms and then deposited by fluid mechanics. Why do you use the bible as a reference? Remember resistance has a squared effect.
Why wouldn't there be? What change in physics are you proposing? Furthermore, what EVIDENCE do you have for such a radical change in physics? I'm not proposing any change in physics!
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
Evolutionary genetics is in its infancy.
Do you disagree?
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
Granny writes: Do you really think that an event like that is incapable of moving a bloody hammer!?. They're your words;not mine. A hammer is about 8 times heavier than water. You showed me wood and cars which are both lighter than water. That's why they're floating away. Five things determine whether or not an object will get dragged away.
Given the right conditions just about anything can be dragged along. Edited by LucyTheApe, : Five things not four.
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
LucyTheApe writes: We'd expect things to be dragged along basedon their physics. Obvious Child writes: Hence why a global flood should uniformally deposit silt in a consistentfashion all over the world according to mass. I don't like your logic here OC. Just say the earth split open at some point at its mantle.This vaporised the ocean for 40 days or so which melted the ice and was also responsible for the rain. If something is sitting on a slope it might well be washed away with the rain.If something is sitting on a plane and it's heavy enough, the water might just cover it with silt without it being dragged anywhere. If something is sitting in a valley it might be dragged to the lowest point in the valley, say the bottom of a lake. A lot of stuff would be dragged to the bottom of the oceans. So a homogenous layer of silt, in my opinion is unlikely.
OC writes: Therefore you think that nothing heavy with smallarea got moved during the massive floods several years ago. I never said anything of the sort, nor did I think it.
OC writes: So you're saying that billions of cubic miles with huge amounts of energy was peaceful? Again, I never said that.There may have been places on the earth where it was peaceful, but not everywhere. OC writes: You are proposing an entirely new set of physical laws,where energy doesn't matter. No I'm not, I'm using the laws we already have, rationally.
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
Rahvin writes: We aren't exactly taking our first few steps here, Lucy. We've been around the block a few times. Sure, there's plenty more to learn, but that's the best part of this Universe: there's always more to learn. Ok, Its not in its infancy even though it was only a couple of yearsor so ago that the human genome was sequenced. My point is that genetics has a lot to learn.
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
RickJB writes: But if there was a global flood the entire planet would be at the bottom of the ocean! The entire planet would be under water not at the bottom of the ocean.
RickJB writes: Any material suspended in the water would have the potential to be deposited anywhere across the surface of the globe, hence a homogenous layer of silt. Any material that is suspended in the water would have the potential to fall, any further movement would require other forces.
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LucyTheApe Inactive Member |
Could you show me how these two statements can [My corrections] Ice tends to melt above 00C. The 10000C or so that would superheat the water would be localized. If you put your hand in front of a steaming kettle, you will burn your hand; if you move it away just a little, its not hot at all.
You aren't operating rationally.You're Making Stuff Up. What is wrong with my rationale? I'm making up a scenario to use as a model, what's wrong with that?
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