Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8984 total)
50 online now:
AZPaul3, JonF, kjsimons, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), Tangle, vimesey (7 members, 43 visitors)
Newest Member: Jerry Johnson
Happy Birthday: Diomedes
Post Volume: Total: 877,671 Year: 9,419/23,288 Month: 434/1,544 Week: 148/561 Day: 51/50 Hour: 3/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Who Owes Income Taxes?
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 80 (184308)
02-10-2005 12:32 AM


Hi Coffee Room,

I thought this would make interesting fodder.

Look at this selection from the 2004 1040 instruction book (taken from the IRS's web site):

Okay. I see where it tells me to report FOREIGN SOURCE income or income I earn OUTSIDE the U.S., but what about income I earn INSIDE the U.S.?

Y'all look and see if y'all can find it. AFAIK, this is the only place in the instruction booklet that defines income!

Cheers,
--TheLit


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 1:06 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 02-10-2005 3:04 AM TheLiteralist has responded

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 80 (184320)
02-10-2005 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheLiteralist
02-10-2005 12:32 AM


page number
That Income selection is from page 19 of the online pdf 1040 instruction booklet, btw.

--TheLit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheLiteralist, posted 02-10-2005 12:32 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 80 (184343)
02-10-2005 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mammuthus
02-10-2005 3:04 AM


we're easily fooled is the point
Mammuthus,

Then you are an American earning income from a FOREIGN SOURCE (from OUTSIDE the United States), just like it says there.

I, and many like me, however, are Americans earning income from INSIDE (and not OUTSIDE) the United States.

So, while I am in no way giving people advice on whether or not to pay taxes (no way am I doing that), I am asking if anyone can prove to me that *I* or any other American earning income from sources INSIDE the United States are liable to pay federal income taxes. The instruction booklet bothers to mention foreign source income but nowhere (that I can find) mentions domestic source income.

There is much more information (for instance, the tax code) that makes it appear that we [Americans earning income from inside the United States] do not, but I thought I'd start the discussion off with something simple--i.e., the 1040 instruction booklet, which is easily accessible.

The point, if people will choose to discuss this topic, will eventually be, not taxes so much, but the amazing degree (and how easily) to which we, the public, can be fooled by propaganda when we trust, unquestioningly, those who appear to have "authority".

Thanks for the response.

--TheLit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 02-10-2005 3:04 AM Mammuthus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Rrhain, posted 02-10-2005 5:07 AM TheLiteralist has responded
 Message 6 by CK, posted 02-10-2005 6:11 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Mammuthus, posted 02-10-2005 6:35 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 8 by CK, posted 02-10-2005 7:22 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2005 11:01 AM TheLiteralist has responded
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 02-10-2005 1:26 PM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 27 by tsig, posted 02-11-2005 3:09 PM TheLiteralist has responded

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 80 (184670)
02-11-2005 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Rrhain
02-10-2005 5:07 AM


Re: Yes, you have to pay income tax
Rrhain,

Because you need to file a 1040...

Are you sure? How do you know this?

it is pretty much obvious where you report your income earned while in the US. It is, after all, a US tax return and the very first section after the demographic information is labeled in big, huge letters: "Income." All of lines 7 through 22 are "Income."

So, the booklet doesn't need to mention domestic income because it is "obvious" that I am required to report it?

Page 12 of your instructions tells you who has to file the return. It also says, "Use Chart A, B, or C to see if you must file a return. U.S. citizens who lived in or had income from a U.S. possession should see Pub. 570."

Okay, this emphasizes that income from a U.S. possession requires one to refer to Pub. 570. Taxpayers (those to whom this booklet applies), need to look at the charts. I believe that the tax law DOES impose a tax on income earned from U.S. possessions, but such income is subject to special rules (I think), and, thus, those earning such income are directed to Pub. 570. But this says nothing of an American’s DOMESTIC INCOME!

Chart A mentions:

"Gross income means all income you received in the form of money, goods, property, and services that is not exempt from tax, including any income from sources outside the United States (even if you may exclude part or all of it).”--emphasis mine

What income is “exempt from tax?” Is domestic income of Americans exempt from tax? Why doesn’t the booklet ever specifically mention the domestic income of Americans? Once again, it DOES specifically mention income from OUTSIDE the United States.

So it would seem that "income" is, indeed, defined in the instructions. You did read the instructions, didn't you? They go through every single line of the return, explaining what it is you need to enter. All of them taken together represent "Income."

The question is still, “What income is “exempt from tax?” This booklet is very clear that I must report all forms of income from foreign sources (except under special circumstances). It is clear that I must look to Pub. 570 if I have income from U.S. possessions. What is NOT CLEAR is what Americans should with their DOMESTIC income.

You assume that domestic income of Americans is taxable. I wonder if the tax law supports this assumption.

Finally, we hope (and I believe) that this booklet is based on the tax laws, which define these terms. I actually should not utterly rely upon these booklets to determine whether the tax laws impose taxes upon my income. I was merely pointing out some odd qualities in the booklet that make me wonder what the law says. This booklet, of course, doesn’t carry the same weight as the law.

--TheLit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Rrhain, posted 02-10-2005 5:07 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Rrhain, posted 02-15-2005 3:43 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 80 (184673)
02-11-2005 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
02-10-2005 11:01 AM


Re: we're easily fooled is the point
CF,

But the US government does have authority. They have real authority. They're the very definition of "the authorities."

So, are there no limits on the government's authority? Is it impossible for our government to act like it has authority over matters it does not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2005 11:01 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 02-12-2005 1:41 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 80 (184674)
02-11-2005 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by tsig
02-11-2005 3:09 PM


Re: we're easily fooled is the point
Hi DHA,

People who can send me to jail have authority, no question about it.

Funny. Your profile indicates that you are from the USA. Based on this statement, though, I feel it is more likely that you reside in North Korea or China or some similar country.

Obviously you are not aware of things like the 4th and 5th amendments of the Constitution.

Fourth Amendment

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Of course, popular TV programming usually makes it appear that for police to need to obtain proper warrants impedes justice. Odd, no? But, then, it is absolutely impossible that our government influences popular media in order to propagandize the American public! It's happened in other countries, sure, but there is no way it could happen here!

Also, this amendment is actually saying that a policeman cannot MAKE you present your driver's license or any other documents to him unless he first presents you with a proper warrant issued upon probable cause (that a crime has been committed) and supported by Oath (i.e., someone swears that they saw you commit a crime) or affirmation. Do you feel like you have a choice when a cop asks to see your driver's license?

FifthAmendment

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

What? Police can't hold you for questioning about crimes unless they first obtain an indictment against you from a Grand Jury (except in certain circumstances like war)? The law can't seize your property without the due process of law?

Wow! Restrictions on police activity? Imagine that!

Of course, if you live in some totalitarian country that doesn't have a Constitution like ours, well that's a different story, but this government is BY, OF and FOR the PEOPLE (or so I thought).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by tsig, posted 02-11-2005 3:09 PM tsig has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by tsig, posted 02-12-2005 1:12 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 37 by truthlover, posted 02-13-2005 12:34 PM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 47 by Rrhain, posted 02-15-2005 4:19 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 80 (184675)
02-12-2005 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by crashfrog
02-11-2005 2:20 PM


CF,

It is my understanding that the Constitution requires that Congress formally declare war on a nation before we attack it. It is also my understanding that no such declaration was made in the case of Iraq, yet Congress "authorized" Bush to make war (what?). That would make Congress, Bush, and popular media (did Tom Brokaw or Dan Rather or PBS repeatedly decry the unconstitutional actions of Congress and the President?) complicit in sidestepping our country's Constitution. I do not take this lightly.

I am enraged by Bush's crimes. I doubt Kerry would have been any better, though. Kerry has said nothing of the greater atrocity that the Congress, of which he was part at the time, did not declare war but somehow "authorized" Bush to commit these atrocities. So, either Kerry (and most of the other Congressman) are completely ignorant of the Constitution (not too complex of a document) or they don't respect it or they hate it. Either way, the whole lot of them have failed in their oath to defend the Constitution and ought all to be removed and possibly jailed. (Bush would maybe need to be jailed for other things as well--the torture, for instance).

But don't you feel much safer now that Bush has established "Fatherland Securi...uh...I mean "Homeland Security?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by crashfrog, posted 02-11-2005 2:20 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 02-12-2005 1:45 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded
 Message 46 by Rrhain, posted 02-15-2005 4:11 AM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020