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Author Topic:   What do you believe is true, even though you cannot prove it?
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 28 of 34 (494957)
01-20-2009 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by shalamabobbi
01-20-2009 4:09 AM


Re: What do you believe is true even though you cannot prove it?
shalamabobbi writes:
I think that many of the theories of science were believed before there was any evidence
By definition, this is impossible. You cannot have a scientific theory without supporting evidence, as it is this evidence upon which we base our theories. In science, a theory is a generalized, well substantiated explanation of something we see in the natural World. Notice the part about being "well substantiated". Substantiation comes via hypotheses formation and experimentation, not the other way around.
shalamabobbi writes:
and that the belief is what propelled scientists to devise experiments to find the evidence to support the theory.
You really have no idea how science operates, do you.
I think you are confusing the concepts of creationism and I.D. with scientific inquiry. Nice try though.
shalamabobbi writes:
I think the distinction should be not that beliefs are bad per se, but whether they are held against overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
And by this I can only assume you mean things like astrology and creationism, as they are picture perfect fits for what you just described.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by shalamabobbi, posted 01-20-2009 4:09 AM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by shalamabobbi, posted 01-20-2009 1:47 PM FliesOnly has replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 30 of 34 (495059)
01-20-2009 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by shalamabobbi
01-20-2009 1:47 PM


Re: What do you believe is true even though you cannot prove it?
shalamabobbi writes:
Correction then from 'any evidence' to 'some evidence' or 'deterministic evidence'. Happy now?
Actually, "no". What you described still has nothing to do with scientific theory. You cannot put forth a scientific theory without first having copious amounts of evidence supporting said theory. That's what a theory is, after all. Don't conflate common daily use of the word "theory" with an actual scientific theory. An idea is not a theory. A simple statement is not a theory. A hypothesis is not a theory.
shalamabobbi writes:
Else how does this explain the Michelson-Morely experiment? The ones running it believed it would prove the existence of the medium in which light traveled, so their beliefs were proved wrong.
Fine...but that's called a "hypothesis". And their test hypothesis was shown to be incorrect. It wasn't a theory. In other words, they followed the scientific method...and it worked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by shalamabobbi, posted 01-20-2009 1:47 PM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by shalamabobbi, posted 01-20-2009 8:34 PM FliesOnly has replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 32 of 34 (495147)
01-21-2009 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by shalamabobbi
01-20-2009 8:34 PM


Re: What do you believe is true even though you cannot prove it?
shalamabobbi writes:
The point of my post is about the existence of belief being operative in most people.
Fine...but that's what you said in post 26. Here it is again, just to remind you.
shalamabobbi in post 26 writes:
I think that many of the theories of science were believed before there was any evidence, and that the belief is what propelled scientists to devise experiments to find the evidence to support the theory.
Bold mine
Now, how am I to interpret that in any other way than you thinking that scientists pull theories out of the asses and then conduct experiments to support those theories?
The part where you said "I think that many of the theories of science were believed before there was any evidence"...seems pretty unambiguous to me. How did I misinterpret that?
shalamabobbi writes:
The point of my post is about the existence of belief being operative in most people.
That's not how it actually works in science. The scientific method is the mechanism that PREVENTS ones on personal biases (i.e. "belief being operative in most people") from influencing experimental design and results.
shalamabobbi writes:
And what was it called before the 'test hypothesis' was put forth?
It could have been called any number of things...a "thought" perhaps. Or maybe an "idea". Who knows. What I do know, is that it was NOT called a theory.
Look, actual scientists do not devise experiments in such a manner to get the results they want. That kind of bullshit would never stand up to scientific scrutiny...peer review. Instead, they put forth testable hypotheses (in the form of a test hypothesis and a null hypothesis)...conduct an experiment...and see which one is supported.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by shalamabobbi, posted 01-20-2009 8:34 PM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by shalamabobbi, posted 01-21-2009 3:05 PM FliesOnly has not replied

  
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