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Author Topic:   The predictions of Walt Brown
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 260 (179953)
01-23-2005 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by wmscott
01-23-2005 7:22 AM


unanswered letter
quote:
32 degree water plus an equal amount of water at even as low as 400 degrees will raise the flood waters to the boiling point and of course the fountains of the deep were proably much hotter
Of the 'probably hotter' I am working on that one in the other thread you got my attention at. I think he may have some things wrong, but so does standard PT, I would guess?
quote:
the steam would flash out to the sides and would create an expanding 'bubble' of steam much like the expanding shock wave of an explosion. This shock wave would travel like most powerful compressive waves travel at about mach 1
Again here, this heat thing. Funny I happen to be trying to understand just that on the other thread. Since your whole long post revolves around this must have started off hot' issue, I'll wait for my other thread testing standard core thinking, to clear it up for me. Sounds like you have Walt on the defense here. Hey, maybe you made such a good arguement, old Walt needs time to address it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by wmscott, posted 01-23-2005 7:22 AM wmscott has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Coragyps, posted 01-23-2005 2:31 PM simple has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 816 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 242 of 260 (179955)
01-23-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by simple
01-23-2005 2:27 PM


Re: unanswered letter
In Walt's web-book somewhere, he mentions 1300 degrees F as a likely temperature for his "caverns" of water. It's in the section on launching asteroids and comets.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by simple, posted 01-23-2005 2:27 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by simple, posted 01-23-2005 3:31 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 260 (179966)
01-23-2005 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Coragyps
01-23-2005 2:31 PM


Re: unanswered letter
quote:
In Walt's web-book somewhere, he mentions 1300 degrees F as a likely temperature
OK. I suspect he may recant, unless he had some ground to reduce the starting temperature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Coragyps, posted 01-23-2005 2:31 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5673 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 244 of 260 (179983)
01-23-2005 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Percy
01-23-2005 11:15 AM


Re: Walts Theory is Awesome!
Percy, I think WmScott and other will beable to work out the bugs that you believe exists within Walts theory.
The waters erupting was not like a hurricane capable of moving powered by the sun, and having lateral winds. Its position was fixed over 46,000 mile extention of the atlantic mid ridges where two steam streams were erupting laterally and combining upwards. I suspect WmScott is correct it steamed upward being wicked upward into the vacuums of space. Then welling above the atmosphere disappating its heat, and coming back to earth with a vengeance (super downdrafts)shielding (insulating) the earth from being overheated.
This would also keep the steam from forming a separate steam bubble to explode, lots of vortexes and things inside where WmScott believes a steam bubble could of formed. There would of been a whole lot of mixing of this residual steam that didn't initially wick upward with the super cooler downdrafts.
These super high speed downdraft straight line winds would of continually been pressing down on the oceans causing the oceans to press backwards ever so gently away from the erupting waters. Its these super cooled (cooled by space) forming the straight line winds that protected the atmosphere that had been rolled back by the steam from being overheated.
I have not read Walts book so I might be misrepresenting Walt. I liked WmScott mentioning steam welling up higher. If Walt doesn't support Steam welling upward, then perhaps Walts theory needs a bit of fine tuning.
I don't understand how steam could form a bubble if its welling upward. It would be no different than a humid front welling upward and the cooler air welling downward.
We'll I thought I'd thank you for the compliment but will likely only be a lurker. I'll now let everyone have the opportunity to have the last word, explaining how super straight line winds wouldn't form from all the superheated waters rising upwards.
Take Care,
Tom

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Percy, posted 01-23-2005 11:15 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by lfen, posted 01-23-2005 5:04 PM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 246 by JonF, posted 01-23-2005 5:37 PM johnfolton has not replied
 Message 247 by edge, posted 01-23-2005 5:58 PM johnfolton has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4759 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 245 of 260 (179988)
01-23-2005 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by johnfolton
01-23-2005 4:40 PM


Re: Walts Theory is Awesome!
We'll I thought I'd thank you for the compliment but will likely only be a lurker. I'll now let everyone have the opportunity to have the last word, explaining how super straight line winds wouldn't form from all the superheated waters rising upwards.
Tom,
Well do please pay us a visit from time to time and feed the question as to whether you are a great exemplar of the brilliant early newsgroup type trolls who used great skill and artistry in setting up a put on but have sadly seemed to have been driven out by hacks, or whether you genuinely believe everything you post. Whichever you are you are a gentleman and it's been a pleasure reading your posts.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by johnfolton, posted 01-23-2005 4:40 PM johnfolton has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 250 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 246 of 260 (179993)
01-23-2005 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by johnfolton
01-23-2005 4:40 PM


Re: Walts Theory is Awesome!
super straight line winds wouldn't form from all the superheated waters rising upwards.
"Exploding upwards" would be a more accurate term. Super heated water turns into steam as soon as it hits the atmosphere.
Of course that would cause straight-up winds (as well as a sonic boom that would flatten every plant and structure for thousands of miles), but where do you think the air comes from that goes into those straight-up winds? The answer is "The rest of the world, at hundreds of miles per hour".
You're still ignoring the destruction of all life by the energy released when this water returns to Earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by johnfolton, posted 01-23-2005 4:40 PM johnfolton has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1788 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 247 of 260 (180001)
01-23-2005 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by johnfolton
01-23-2005 4:40 PM


Walts Theory is Nonsense
Percy, I think WmScott and other will beable to work out the bugs that you believe exists within Walts theory.
Well, wmscott has a long way to go. As yet he has not posted any kind of diagnostic evidence to support a single one of his ideas in a couple of years of posting here.
The waters erupting was not like a hurricane capable of moving powered by the sun, and having lateral winds.
Did you ever hear of turbulence?
Its position was fixed over 46,000 mile extention of the atlantic mid ridges where two steam streams were erupting laterally and combining upwards.
This is silly. Firstly, I do not see how you know that there were two vents located somewhere along the world-wide mid-ocean ridge system. Why were there not more vents?
I suspect WmScott is correct it steamed upward being wicked upward into the vacuums of space.
Wicking is not rapid process. Sorry. Besides if wicking in defiance of gravity were that efficient a process, the atmosphere should have bubbled away long ago.
Then welling above the atmosphere disappating its heat, and coming back to earth with a vengeance (super downdrafts)shielding (insulating) the earth from being overheated.
Utter nonsense. Having any kind of a thermal anomaly in the atmosphere that large would have consequences to all life on earth. I guess this is another on of those fast-slow, violent-peaceful, wet-dry, hot-cold phenomena that we see so often in the earth's history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by johnfolton, posted 01-23-2005 4:40 PM johnfolton has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 248 of 260 (180187)
01-24-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Coragyps
01-23-2005 1:15 PM


Re: Walts Theory is Awesome!
Coryagyps writes:
Uhhhh...wrong. Space has lots and lots of ice - comets, Pluto, grains in interstellar clouds. Just get things cold enough and ice will be the stable form of water. Liquid water, now, is another story. You can make it freeze just by pulling a vacuum on it.
Ever tried actually doing that?
I have. It doesn't happen that way.
I work with vacuum systems every day of my life.
I also fire super heated water vapor (7000K) into a vacuum system every day of my life. There has never been any ice formed in it.
Check out this phase diagram of water. It clearly shows that water can normally only exist in the vapor phase in a total vacuum.
I was surpised at how amazingly difficult it was to find a decent phase diagram of water. There are a lot of these phase diagrams out there on the web but most of them don't go anywhere close to a vacuum on the Y axis so they look as if water can exist as a solid under these conditions. The only way to get solid water ice in a vacuum would be to get the temperature down close to absolute zero. You also have to remember that space in our Solar System is actually quite hot unless you are in the shade of a planet.
If you pull a hard enough vacuum on a block of ice, it will rapidly sublime into the vapor phase unless you can simultaneously cool it way down near to absolute zero.
If you pull a vacuum on liquid water it will boil into the vapor phase. It will never form ice. I don't know where you got that peice of information from but it is wrong.
As for Pluto, it is mostly made up of frozen Nitrogen, Carbon monoxide and some methane. There is no water ice there.
Comets? I must admit here that I find a lot of references to water ice in these, but even then there is none on the surface according to this news bulletin from Nasa's Jet Propulsion Lab.
I can only assume that the water ice is protected from the Sun's heat by the surface layers.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Coragyps, posted 01-23-2005 1:15 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Percy, posted 01-24-2005 11:24 AM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 251 by Coragyps, posted 01-24-2005 12:01 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 249 of 260 (180212)
01-24-2005 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by PurpleYouko
01-24-2005 10:43 AM


Re: Walts Theory is Awesome!
Purple Youko writes:
Comets? I must admit here that I find a lot of references to water ice in these, but even then there is none on the surface according to this news bulletin from Nasa's Jet Propulsion Lab.
I can only assume that the water ice is protected from the Sun's heat by the surface layers.
Comets are usually described as great balls of ice and dust and rock, and I've sometimes wondered how the ice survived in the vacuum of space, expecting that it would rapidly sublimate. I imagined that two factors were at work: first, not having a phase diagram of water and not knowing the actual temperature and pressure out in deep space where comets spend most of their time, I imagined that the temperature must be low enough for the ice to sublimate very slowly. And second, I figured that the occasional excursion inward toward the sun would sublimate all ice near the surface leaving only the dust and rock, which would act to protect the rest of the ice.
I saw a couple problems with this view, though. The dust and rock covering would not be airtight, so the ice would still be exposed to a vacuum. And comets have been around since the beginning of the solar system, and it seems like even very slow sublimation over 4.5 billion years would be sufficient to evaporate all the ice out of comets of any size. Yet comets return to the inner solar system on a regular basis, and their tails reveal they have ample water.
Your link hints that the scientists aren't considering sublimation as much of a factor, which surprises me. For example, Dr. Laurence Soderblom of the USGS says, "The spectrum suggests that the surface is hot and dry. It is surprising that we saw no traces of water ice." If ice on the surface would have sublimated, why did this scientist expect to see any? Either he's ignorant about this, which makes little sense, or there's more to this than we think.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by PurpleYouko, posted 01-24-2005 10:43 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by PurpleYouko, posted 01-24-2005 11:53 AM Percy has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 250 of 260 (180221)
01-24-2005 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Percy
01-24-2005 11:24 AM


Re: Walts Theory is Awesome!
Yes that kind of confused me a little too. I have no idea what is going on there really. Maybe some kind of localized pressure increase from the mass of the comet?
I wouldn't have thought 100kms diameter would be enough to generate much gravity though.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Percy, posted 01-24-2005 11:24 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Percy, posted 01-24-2005 12:02 PM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 816 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 251 of 260 (180223)
01-24-2005 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by PurpleYouko
01-24-2005 10:43 AM


Ever tried actually doing that?
Yup. A little beaker of water in a bell jar, and a vacuum pump, and you can even show something approaching the triple point of water - ice, liquid, and vapor all coexisting.
It clearly shows that water can normally only exist in the vapor phase in a total vacuum.
The same applies for platinum or quartz - they have non-zero vapor pressures, too, at any temperature above absolute zero. But "non-zero" doesn't mean it's very big, or that you can transfer a big bunch of solid to vapor in the lifetime of the solar system at the temperatures that prevail out by Pluto.
As for Pluto, it is mostly made up of frozen Nitrogen, Carbon monoxide and some methane. There is no water ice there.
From my ancient Lang's handbook of chemical data, we find the following temperatures to get a vapor pressure on 1.0 mm Hg:
water -17 degrees C
nitrogen -226 C
carbon monoxide -222 C
methane -206 C
The lowest temperature the give for water is -98 C, and its vapor pressure there is 0.000015 mm Hg - and this is still over 100 C hotter than the other substances that are "stable" on Pluto. Water may be more unstable than the others to photolytic decomposition, but it would be much, much less prone to sublime than those three substances.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by PurpleYouko, posted 01-24-2005 10:43 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Percy, posted 01-24-2005 12:08 PM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 254 by PurpleYouko, posted 01-24-2005 12:42 PM Coragyps has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 252 of 260 (180224)
01-24-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by PurpleYouko
01-24-2005 11:53 AM


Re: Walts Theory is Awesome!
I think this kind of clinches the debate in Walt's favor. If the solar system were really 4.5 billion years old, comets couldn't exist since the ice would have sublimated away eons ago.
Seriously, this is an interesting little puzzle. I'm doing builds today, so I have small interstices of time to poke about the Internet. I'll post again if I find anyting.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by PurpleYouko, posted 01-24-2005 11:53 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22610
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 253 of 260 (180227)
01-24-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Coragyps
01-24-2005 12:01 PM


Well, that answer was quick in coming! I was just about to start Googling.
So the answer is that the sublimination rate of ice at low temperatures is so slow that objects the size of comets can last billions of years? Okay, that makes sense. But why did the scientist expect to find ice on the surface of the comet when he obviously is aware that past approaches to the inner solar system would have sublimated any such ice long ago? And that comet was fairly hot and the pressure extremely low - his expectation of surface ice makes no sense.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Coragyps, posted 01-24-2005 12:01 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 254 of 260 (180237)
01-24-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Coragyps
01-24-2005 12:01 PM


evaporation = refridgeration
Hi Coryagyps
Just been thinking a little about your beaker in a bell jar experiment and I can see why it would tend to freeze the water. I think what you are seeing is that the surface of the water rapidly boils off as the pressure drops. In order to change phase it draws energy from the surrounding water, thus making it colder. This works like refridgerant in a freezer and is obviously going to cause the surface of the water to freeze. However if you leave the bell jar under vacuum in your lab for a day or two, there will be no ice left as it will all sublime away. The fact that the bell jar is at room temperature will provide it with plenty of radiated energy to do so.
Now try doing it with a jet of super heated steam. It is already in the vapor phase with all its molecules well spread out so it will never condense to form the solid ice in the first place.
I do this all the time with an ICPMS. (Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometer) We pump gallons of water into a hard vacuum at very high temperatures and no ice has ever formed.
Here is a possible explanation for how comets can contain water ice. The solid ice cannot actually sublime without an input of energy to help it to change phase so at close to absolute zero, as it most likely is out in the Ort cloud, even though the ice would be more stable as a vapor, there simply isn't enough available heat to allow it to change phase.
Your data sounds fine except that 1.0mm of mercury (1 Torr, 1.33 miliBar or 0.0013 atmospheres) is still a pretty high pressure. You are 8 orders of magnitude (or more) too high here.
Try looking up 5E-8mBar or 3.5E-8 mm of Mercury. That is the vacuum that I work at and it is much closer to what you will find in space.
Actually I am not really sure what the actual pressure in space really is but everything I can find about it assumes a pressure of near to zero. It is possible to reach 1E-10 mBar in a high vacuum mass spectrometer so I should think space was around that level.
Here is a useful site to convert pressure from one unit to another.
Incidentally, we use some Platinum components in the high vacuum systems and they do sublime quite rapidly. We lose a seal (5 G or so) about once per year. Bear in mind that it also has a very small cross section that is exposed to the vacuum. Gold dissapears even faster. A gold coin the size of a quarter would be entirely sublimed in less than a month. (I haven't actually tested this due to the cost of the experiment) We used to use gold seals but they didn't last long enough to make it finacially viable.
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Coragyps, posted 01-24-2005 12:01 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Coragyps, posted 01-24-2005 1:04 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 816 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 255 of 260 (180246)
01-24-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by PurpleYouko
01-24-2005 12:42 PM


Re: evaporation = refridgeration
PY - your refrigeration thought is dead on the money, and yes, the ice will all sublime if you keep pumping.
My handbook doesn't have vapor pressures for those other substances below 1 mm Hg, or I would have used them. I think that I remember that vacuums inside the solar system are on the order of the best we can get here on the ground.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by PurpleYouko, posted 01-24-2005 12:42 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by PurpleYouko, posted 01-24-2005 1:11 PM Coragyps has replied

  
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