What makes a terrorist a terrorist?

Well, the thing that you need to remember is that definitions are slippery things.ramoss said "If you purposely target the innocent, then it is terrorist."You replied that If you are a Nation State in a declared war, I don't think you can be considered a terrorist. That means that the things like Dresden are horrific, but not terrorist acts. They might well be war crimes however.The gray area comes when a Nation State acts against non Nation States.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

What does that have to do with this discussion? Can Hezbollah overrun Israel? Can Hamas overrun Israel? Could Lebanon overrun Israel? Could the Palestinian Authority overrun Israel?Phat, we are talking about trying to define what makes a terrorist. Head towards the subject.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Just for reference, here is the picture again.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You might even ask where bunker busting bombs came from.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You forget a few other points. There was the need for patent rights and processing secrets for the manufacture of cellulose and a healthy dose of Anti-Semitism, better the Jews there than in London, for Gods sake and a major internal governmental shakeup in Great Britain.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Terrorism is a new paradigm, we have had about 500 years to work out the issues in Nation State/Nation State conflicts, and over that span of time developed both some rules all somewhat agreed to and procedures that should be used to manage Nation State conflicts. Perhaps in 500 years or so we will know how to deal with the new paradigm of terrorism.In the mean time, what makes a terrorist?I think the first point is that very seldom is a Nation State the actual terrorist organization, however Nation States do create, train, fund and encourage terrorism as a surrogate (generally seen as a low cost surrogate as well) for direct Nation State conflicts. That is not limited to Nations such as Iran or Syria, the US and other Western Nations have also used terrorists as a tool of policy to be deployed when it is desirable to allow "Plausible Deniability" or simply economics.The terrorist organizations created and supported by Nation States, such as the US created terrorist groups in South and Central America, those the US created in Afghanistan usually believe that they are self directed even though often it is simply a matter that the Nation State has used local perceived issues to further the political and economic goals of teh Nation State.Looking at the terrorist organizations themselves, usually they seem to be a tool of last resort, when the people that lead and engender the organization believe that there is absolutely no other method of achieving their goals. Almost all terrorist organizations appear to exist for a moral purpose, to right a wrong.Finally, so far it does not appear that once things degenerate to the point were terrorism becomes the norm, classic military solutions become ineffective. All solutions to such situations so far seem to have come from a combination of policing, a diplomatic discussion, and an honest appraisal of those issues, whether real or perceived, of the terrorist.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes, there are people that hold the position that terrorist=muslim, but of course none of the facts support such a position. There seems to be little point in even engaging them so can we move on to what is terrorism and what can be done to make it less harmful than it is today?IMHO terrorism is a new paradigm and we need to build some set of procedures to deal with it. I think one first step is to acknowledge that terrorist behave as they do from a moral position, and that terrorist acts are not the desired method even for them.A second point to address IMHO is that in many cases, there really is a justification for their beliefs, if not for the methods. They simply see no other possible course of action.Third, one of the main tools of the terrorist organization is to encourage a response from the attacked party, usually a Nation State, that is out of proportion to the threat. That works in the terrorist favor in several ways. One is that the economic cost of the response from the Nation State is far higher than the economic cost to the terrorist organization. That places a drain on the Nation State beyond simple violence or military might, it causes the Nation State to divert resources from other, often sorely needed, tasks. In turn, that redirection of internal resources places more strain on both the Nation State and the internal support of the people within the Nation State for its governments policies.Externally, the out of proportion response tends to increase support and recruitment for the terrorists, and so even when they lose such exchanges, as they must, it increases their strength.The question then has to be directed towards what responses other than violence are open to Nation States?I think this is important particularly when we look towards Iraq, since the possibility of a civil war there increases daily, and the root causes for such a war were pretty obvious even 100 years ago, yet have never been addressed.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Even though at this very minute 20-30,000 Muslims refugees are trying to survive Tamil Tigers fight for Independance from the Sri Lankan governement. In this case the terrorist are not Muslim, the fight is not about Ideology or Islam against the West. There is no pretense involved. Terrorism is NOT just an Islamic phenomenon. To pretend that it is is to ignore reality in favor of some personal dogma. Thousands of Muslims flee fierce fighting in Sri Lanka

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I believe you said: I showed you an example of terrorism that is NOT Islamic and in fact where Muslims are the victims. The majority of Lebanese that are being bombed are not terrorists. The majority of Palestinians that are being shelled are not terrorists. The Basque Separation movement is not Islamic. Most of the terrorism in the Middle East is not ideological, but political.Terrorism is NOT just some Islamic phenomenon, and it is NOT just about religion. To pretend it is is to ignore reality in favor of some personal dogma.Egypt has treaties with Israel. Egypt is a Muslim nation.Jordan has treaties with Israel. Jordan is a Muslim nation.It is NOT ideological.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes, ideology is one factor, one tool in the toolbox, but what I was trying to emphasize by capitalizing Ideology is that it is not just ideology. If we look at where Iraq is going we see there the beginnings of a civil war. The problem lies along cultural lines, all are Muslim, but they are foremost Kurds or Sunni or Shia. Even Ideology is not Islam vs the West, it a complex issue of cultural identity where being Muslim or Being Jewish or Being Christian is but one facet.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Why can't you read and interpret it yourself? Do you read the Bible? Do you read the Bible in the original Greek and Aramaic?Do you say the same about the Bible? Are you incapable of interpreting the Bible and have to rely on others who have studied it?The Qur'an is available in several English translations. Like the Bible, you can even read several translations at one time so you can see the variations in translation. One such site, one that has been recommended to you by Holmes several times is The Nobel Qur'an. Have you gone there and read it yet?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I went back and reread all of Holmes posts in this thread and I am having some problems finding things. Since you seem to be saying he said these things, maybe you can point them out. Did Holmes really say that or are you just making stuff up? Did Holmes really say that or are you just making stuff up?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Are you saying, just so I am sure and don't spend more time rereading Holmes extremely well written, concise and logical posts looking for where he said those things that ...

he did not say any of those things and you are just making believe he said them?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So did he say those things you mentioned in Message 241 or ...

he did not say any of those things and you are just making believe he said them?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So you did just make it up? When you say "I'm sure you will complain that this is not what you are saying." at the end of you knew that it honestly was not what he was saying and you did just make it up.Okay. I think we now understand that you were just making up your own version of what people actually say.Thank you for clearing that up.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion