What makes a terrorist a terrorist?

The Americans in WW2 where a bit more aprehensive about indescriminant bombing but most of the allied nations specifically targetted civilians as effective war policy. The goal of the bombing was not only to destroy infastructure but to also destroy the will of the people to keep fighting.The truth of the matter is that the only wars in history could ever have been considered to be 'won' were done so on the basis of terrorism. War IS terror!Scorched earth policies are very effective. This seems coarse but that is what war is. The reason the north beat the south is because the north was willing to go in and put to the fire anything that could possibly be usefull to the southern government regardless if it was civilian or not. That is why we beat Germany. That is why we lost in Korea and Veitnam. That is why we are loosing in Afganistan and Iraq. It is sickening, vile, and disgusting but it is a plain and simple fact of war.Even during the American Revolution, more progress was made toward ending the war by meaningless naval incursions into British waters then anything the armies were doing on the ground in the colonies. England lost not because it didn't have the capability, but because it lost the will to fight.You cannot seperate war from terrorism. Terrorism is a fact of war. We use terrorism all the time in both our history and current policies. Yes we have this semblance of nobility in our attempt to limit damage to military targets but in reality there is not such great distinction that would allow such an effort to ever be effective.Israel knows it is killing civilians. It is doing so as part of policy just like us in Iraq. In terms of war, their only failing is the belief that this nit-pick style of half-hearted warmongering is at all effective.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Are you going to say why or just toss out one liners?Of course it was not the only reason why we beat Germany. But it IS a fundamental difference in the style of conflict between that war which we won and subsequent wars in which we lost and had no business loosing.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Well I was just being brief. Of course the Soviets also indiscriminantly killed civilians as part of policy. In fact, they did it with much more barbarity and much more personally then the folks on the western front since they didn't have quite as much experience carpet bombing German cities. Their policy was more of the "rape and pillage" variety rather than simply putting an explosive on every square inch of German territory. It was also very successful in breaking the will of the Germans. The point remains the same.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Yea. Just like the Iroquois, Cherokee, Algonquin, ...I mean damn. They didn't even have a capital city or regular army or anything! How could they possibly be considered a nation? Can't be because they were ACTUALLY LIVING THERE!..Oh wait, I forgot. My family does not exist. Sorry Faith. I forgot what facts are and are not in your fantasy world. Rapture here we come.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

So the terrorists make the Israeli government bulldoze acres of ancient olive groves? Different from the tribal entities that existed in Palestine how?Just as a hint, Palestinian families don't have last names. We have a tribal or clan name. Could it be because we are tribal entities? Hmm...

ROFL! I can PROMISE there was no terrorists hiding in our family groves. What are you going to come up with next? Were the groves themselves terrorists? Were the trees armed? Maybe it was because potential terrorists could possibly someday get nutrition from the olives of those trees.You should visit some of the intact groves in that region. Not only are they beautiful but you can see for yourself how useful they are for hiding gunmen. What a preposterous claim! Really nothing Israel could ever do would EVER elicit a condemnation from you.{ABE: I forgot to mention. You ad-hoc explanation does not cover why they would also destroy a sapling grove. Were terrorists hiding behind saplings? Ever seen a looney-toons cartoon where one of the characters hides behind a twig? Really you are an expert at the ad-hoc and I actually did laugh out loud. } Which is different from the tribal entities that existed there how? You didn't describe any differences. The entities that existed there lived in tribal groups and had tribal identities. How then were they not tribal entities? You are just outright guessing and it shows. Well, Mark Twain was wrong. The town I am from consists of hundreds of people grouped into 3 main clans. All native. Next I suppose you are going to say it is not a "tribal" entity because I called it a "clan". I am not talking about the people who are NOW called palestinians. I am talking about the people who have ALWAYS been called palestinians, their culture, and their tribal/clan identities.Just because we didn't live in long houses or hunt for buffalo does not mean that there were no tribal entities. Really what you are doing is pull at any straw you can to try to ignore the fact that you criteria for the existance of a tribal identity was bogus. And the more you defend it rather that simply go back to say that you were wrong the more wrong you are making yourself out to be.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Sure! I am about to go on vacation. I'll look into it when I get back.

They destroyed ancient groves, and ALSO sapling groves. They have kept some farmers from planting new trees. It was in the news a very long time ago. I'll try to track it down for you. Olive trees take over a generation before they become fruit bearing. They take even longer to get large enough to provide any kind of cover for a boogey man terrorist.The claim of a security zone is bullshit. If I can get to a scanner I have some old pictures of some mature groves. The hills the trees grow in provide more cover than the trees do. Also, given that Israel has air recon capabilities it seems silly that they need help finding a gunman behind a tree.They also bulldoze peoples houses for a "security zone". Pretty much anything can be rationalized under that obscure heading.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

The problem is that too much of the time, what you call propaganda, I know is true from personal or second-hand experience. Israel has not just "been wrong many times" they have committed out right attrocities toward innocent people. This is a matter of fact for me and other people who have experienced the situation. You wonder why the "terrorists" can survive under such underdog conditions. It is because Israel creates new terrorists every day. You don't get it. It doesn't matter that there was no NATION of Palestine just like there was no NATION of Cherokee. They had no border, no regula army, no capitol city, yet people have no problem consdiering their removal from their native lands to be one of the worst attrocities every committed. The only Palestinians I know are all native. I have no idea what the differentiation should be between a "native" and "immigrant" Palestinian. I also don't see the benefit of making a distinction. If they once lived there and were displaced illegally then that makes them a vicitim. That is a silly and attrocious change. I expect you to retract it. I have never supported terrorism. I am morally opposed to all form of violence for any cause. Any less would not be Christian. Why are you asking irrelivant rehetorical questions? I never claimed to deny the agression of Arab states toward Israel and you know that. All you show by asking that kind of question is that you are either dishonestly trying to stigmatize me as a proponent of anti-Israeli action or you simply are not paying attention to the conversation.My posts have been all about trying to show you the truth about your beloved and "innocent" Israel. Certainly there is no clean hands on both sides but you seem to be so undauntingly smitten by Israel that it seems quite ludicrous to someone sitting on the other side of the fence who KNOWS how terrible they have been to real people.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

It is for terrorizing innocent people to try to make them leave their homeland. And it works! To them, they are not leaving them alone. They are pissed off and they are living on land that Israel claims to be theirs. You don't think that if Israel had its way that it would assert sovergnty everything to the Jordanian border? If you think otherwise then I am sorry but you are truly living in a fantasy world.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

You are imparting an opinion on my that I have never expressed. You constantly complain about people doing this to you so I cannot imagine why you would turn around and do it to me. I have never said that there is no propaganda about this issue coming from BOTH sides. Certainly there MUST be cases where stories are over/under exagerated. There are also stories that go unreported. My problem has consistently been that you seem to ferociously admonish any attempt to bring to light the real cases where Israel has done something wrong. It alwasy "MUST" be because they had a good reason. They can do no wrong. Yet on the other hand, any action that any Palestinian or other Arab takes is automatically relegated to the status of "terrorist". Your attitude is seemingly focused on the infallability of Israel. Perhaps. I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. No one here has said that Israel ALWAYS commits attrocities. How is that different from an innocent man who just had his house bulldozed from finding a gun and going on a murderous rage? It is equally deplorable. Yet you call one of them "provoked" and another the unsolicited act of a "terrorist". So I guess that makes Israel responsible for the purposeful placing of civilian settlements in the occupied territories? How is that not setting up shop among civilians? Faith there is almost always a two way street here. It is not just unprovoked action against Israel for no purpose. I agree! I just happen to think that it is uncivilized on BOTH sides while you seem to be picking one. Some, perhaps. But you take any action as automatically an attempt to play Blood Politics (tm). Where there is state sponsored action such as Hezbolah I would tend to agree that this can be the case sometimes. What effect? Are there countries lining up to battle Israel because these tactics are so convincing? You don't think nation-states are smarter than that? Since when are experiences emotions? Since when are experiences not also facts of the situation? You mean to tell me that it is "provoked" for an IDF soldier to go off his rocker and yet when it happens to a Palestinian it is not exactly what I just described? The rest of the world has a criteria for attrocities that does not hinge on your requirement of a nation-state. This is not about the creation of a country of Palestine. We were just fine given the local dynamics of the area before Europe had the need to carve up land and haul flags above capitol cities. SO you don't think that any Palestinians have been removed/displaced because of Israel's actions? You do consider yourself a scholar on this issue don't you? Yea, you know there was also Jewish and other kinds of ethnic Palestinians there. NO they did not have a unified identity. You don't seem to understand that this does not matter. I am not talking about the attrocity of a nation being invaded and displaced. I am talking about individuals, innocent people who have been killed, maimed, made homeless, had their land and property taken from them, and generally terrorized by an imperialistic force. You go build a house. Live in it for a week. Then let me come destroy it with all your possessions in it with the reason that you don't have any tie to the land. I believe that Israel is equally dangerous to innocent civilians based on their track record. I am not trying to defend terrorists. I am trying to defend the good name of innocent people who only want to live their lives in peace. I have the same opinion of you. That pretty much IS the extent of it. It works they other way too though. If Jews die then the killers are ALSO evil. It is a lose/lose situation and this holier-than-thou attitude of and for Israel only whitewashes that basic fact. It is war and it is messy. No body gets to keep their hands clean. Disinformation against Palestinians goes on all the time too. But you don't hear about that. You have plenty of sources for exactly how some minor aspect of a story was slanted against Israel. No such benefit is given to people bleeding and starving on the other side of the fence (concrete wall, whatever you want to call it).

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I am pretty much done here. I really don't have the patience or blood pressure to spare dealing with this topic with you. You have made your position of unabashed and unconditional support of Israel perfectly clear and there is no changing that.You make it pretty clear that you don't care to have a conversation about this: You have no intention of every examining the other side of the coin even though others including myself have: You invent counter facts: And you completely trivialize the issue: I am sure this conversation may spring up again some day. I have this masochistitic tendency to continually try to have a decent debate with you and I don't know if that will ever be possible. The dogmatism here is as thick as it is in EvC debate. Before you turn that around on my like you inevitibly will, I AM saying that there are problems on both sides. You are the one giving Israel a free pass. You can call mine dogmatism too but it will be as empty a claim as pretty much everything else you have said so far.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

One thing that defines warfare is the practice of deception, as in every war, in every centry, since the beginning of time.Creating propaganda is fun isn't it Faith.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

What I find interesting about the above is how narrow the possibilities are given the illogical and unproven assumption of necessary religious imperialsim in Islam. If this was true (and it is not, Faith has abandoned facing sustantial challanges to his position yet continues to spout this bullshit in these threads as if she has somehow shown this to be true) then Israel has only one logical choice to exterminate their enemies OR be saved by supernatural intervention as per endtimes doctrine. That is what seems to drive this staunch position of unconditional support of Israel and continual demonization of Islam as a religion.Given Faith's assumptions, Israel really has no choice except to wipe out all the Moslems. If really there is NO WAY to counteract this supposed ideologically driven violence then this should be a no brainer for Israel. Not doing so only ensures their eventual destruction. It is impossible to hold back the tide of a opposing nation with nuclear power. Therefor Israel SHOULD pre-emptivly exterminate any and all opposition to its existence with extreme prejudice. This starts WWIII in the MidEast and BINGO Jesus comes back.The alternative is that Israel does nothing and eventually the ideological tidal wave that is Islam eventually is powerful enough to destroy Israel. The catch here is that Israel will be supernaturally saved by God per Revelations kicking off the endtimes.Because and end times Christian KNOWS that we "nearing the end" and that these events are "SURE" to happen these are the only two outcomes that are palatable. It is IMPOSSIBLE TO CONCIEVE that the vast majority of Palestinians and other arabs want peace, democracy, and to be able to live their lives without fear of being another casuality to world politics.You "know" that there will never be peace in that region just like you "know" there was a flood and the earth MUST BE young. The entire basis for your opinion on Islam and the current situation is deeply rooted in your particular dogma. If was not then you could have supported your position that religious imperialism is inherent in Islam with evidence rather than your continuous dogmatic insistence that it is true. Because you already "know" how the story ends, nothing anyone can ever say or do would ever change your mind.Yea I know you are going to reply and say, "Plenty of evidence was given by ex-Moslems and plenty of other anti-Islam apologetics" but the truth of the matter is that ever time we have brought it up you or CS or buz have either actually or performed the intellectual equivalent of running away from the conversation. To someone who does not have your insatiable need to be innerrant and ordained with the truth the previous seems all to clear. I know you don't necessarily hate Islam per-say. It is just the catalyst for the series of events you know is going to happen. Because of that, any conclusion that does not fit within the framework of the "plan" is automatically invalid. This includes the challange to your preposterous assumption that Islam is out to subjugate or kill the entire world.Where am I wrong? What is Israel supposed to do given your basic assumptions about Islam? If they can NEVER eliminate the "self-breeding" danger of terrorism then what can they do? I am not fixed in my position. This is merely an account of my observations. I would really like to be wrong here. Show me how I am.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

How could they do that though if the cause is ideological? You have made it perfectly clear that you believe this is the case. How can Israel stop the ideology that is the root cause for the terrorism. Are they going to convince people to stop being Moslem? That is of course as long as Islam is the equivalent of religious imperialism which you have so ferociously defended.Read your own words that I quoted in the previous post. According to you, it is absoultly impossible a nation of Islam to live side by side with Israel. The logical conclusion therefore is only that one day the bubble must burst. One of them has to go if they are supposed polar opposites in terms of unconditional criteria for peace.That is the only conclusion to draw from such black and white reasoning. I believe this reasoning is motivated by end times doctrine. Buzsaw is more explicit about saying it is so but pretty much anyone who is a literalist and believes in the second-coming per Revelations should logically hold the same position.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)