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Author Topic:   What makes a terrorist a terrorist?
Faith
Member
Posts: 32708
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 241 of 300 (338152)
08-05-2006 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Silent H
08-05-2006 4:21 PM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
No way to answer such a long convoluted collection of mostly specious arguments. Fine, holmes, Israel is the greatest evil in the Middle East. They are evil Jews who want to take over the world, and they have committed nothing but crimes on their way to their tyrannical command of their enormous empire, stepping on the backs of these honest Muslims who are only terrorists in self defense, who should be allowed to kill just as many Israelis as (they have staged it to look like) Israelis have killed of their civilians. OK? I give up. I'm sure you will complain that this is not what you are saying.

{edit: But it's what I see as the upshot of it.

However, I will apologize for simply not having the patience to answer that long convoluted wandering post of yours. Perhaps later. Although I know what the upshot of THAT will be too.}

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Silent H, posted 08-05-2006 4:21 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 08-05-2006 8:20 PM Faith has responded
 Message 253 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 5:21 AM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 242 of 300 (338153)
08-05-2006 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
08-05-2006 7:55 PM


Need help finding where you are getting your material?
I went back and reread all of Holmes posts in this thread and I am having some problems finding things. Since you seem to be saying he said these things, maybe you can point them out.

Faith writes:

Fine, holmes, Israel is the greatest evil in the Middle East.

Did Holmes really say that or are you just making stuff up?

Faith writes:

They are evil Jews who want to take over the world, and they have committed nothing but crimes on their way to their tyrannical command of their enormous empire, stepping on the backs of these honest Muslims who are only terrorists in self defense, who should be allowed to kill just as many Israelis as (they have staged it to look like) Israelis have killed of their civilians.

Did Holmes really say that or are you just making stuff up?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 7:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 8:30 PM jar has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 32708
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 243 of 300 (338156)
08-05-2006 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
08-05-2006 8:20 PM


Re: Need help finding where you are getting your material?
I believe that expresses in broad sarcastic language the implications of what he is saying. Certainly it will be the practical result of such ideas in the end. Israel will be more and more vilified as the evil one, and half the world will side with her enemies as the poor victimized oppressed ones, utterly oblivious to the true cause of their actions and their duplicity and lies as they stage things to put Israel in the wrong, and that's how World War III is likely to come about. All kinds of "contexts" will be found in which to explain away the terrorists' agenda, as he explained away Khomeini's. I'm aghast but I shouldn't be surprised. Just have to give up once again as irrationality rules the day.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 08-05-2006 8:20 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 08-05-2006 8:39 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 244 of 300 (338158)
08-05-2006 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
08-05-2006 8:30 PM


Re: Need help finding where you are getting your material?
Are you saying, just so I am sure and don't spend more time rereading Holmes extremely well written, concise and logical posts looking for where he said those things that ...

he did not say any of those things and you are just making believe he said them?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 8:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 9:08 PM jar has responded

Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3293 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 245 of 300 (338159)
08-05-2006 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
08-05-2006 1:31 PM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
Current terrorism in the world is massively predominantly Muslim.

I would take issue with this. More accurately Islamic terrorism would be labeled as the most reported terrorism within western civilization. I would say this because numerous terrorist actions occur in both South America, Africa, (where Islam is far weaker and christianity is the major religion), Eastern Europe (largely christian) and Southeast Asia (mainland is eastern religions the islands have a large population that follow Islam) however, the actions in these areas are largely ignored because these areas aren't terribly important to the west (little if no oil).

Example of such would be the Ruwanda , Kosovo, Cambodia (Pol-Pot) ethnic cleansings same thing as terrorism etc. Both inspire terror in particular groups.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 1:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 9:03 PM Discreet Label has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32708
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 246 of 300 (338161)
08-05-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Discreet Label
08-05-2006 8:59 PM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
Your list sounded like a lot of Marxist-inspired groups besides the Islamic ones, and gave no facts about actions. The existence of groups says nothing. Both Marxism and Islam are major ideologies that promote terrorism. I'm actually interested in the other terrorist actions in the world but you haven't said enough about them. What I do know is that Islam is responsible for most of the terrorism that I know of, all over Asia and the Middle East and now the West. Yes, they are threatening us and that is uppermost in my concern of course.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Discreet Label, posted 08-05-2006 8:59 PM Discreet Label has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32708
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 247 of 300 (338164)
08-05-2006 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by jar
08-05-2006 8:39 PM


Re: Need help finding where you are getting your material?
Holmes' post, and his posts in general, are convoluted and excessively wordy with many side excursions into irrelevancies, and full of specious apologetics for some position or other that is often hard to identify. I can't believe he would raise the question of how Khomeini's words were translated, on a site full of ex-Muslims who know Arabic. I'm sorry, I just don't have the energy to go through and answer all his petty points. They add up in the end to giving the terrorists freedom to keep doing what they are doing, ignoring their duplicity and deep motives, and pointing the finger at Israel, which is only defending itself. And this is what you all are doing here. Nothing new. I've answered his posts at length today and I just don't have the energy to answer yet another in the same detail. What I said is what it amounts to.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 08-05-2006 8:39 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 08-05-2006 9:13 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 248 of 300 (338167)
08-05-2006 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
08-05-2006 9:08 PM


Re: Need help finding where you are getting your material?
So did he say those things you mentioned in Message 241 or ...

he did not say any of those things and you are just making believe he said them?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 9:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 11:29 PM jar has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 32708
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 249 of 300 (338189)
08-05-2006 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by jar
08-05-2006 9:13 PM


you know very well what I'm saying
I did not SAY he *SAID* it. I was characterizing its ultimate implications.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 08-05-2006 9:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by jar, posted 08-05-2006 11:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 250 of 300 (338191)
08-05-2006 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
08-05-2006 11:29 PM


Re: you know very well what I'm saying
Faith writes:

I did not SAY he *SAID* it. I was characterizing its ultimate implications.

So you did just make it up? When you say "I'm sure you will complain that this is not what you are saying." at the end of

Faith writes:

Fine, holmes, Israel is the greatest evil in the Middle East. They are evil Jews who want to take over the world, and they have committed nothing but crimes on their way to their tyrannical command of their enormous empire, stepping on the backs of these honest Muslims who are only terrorists in self defense, who should be allowed to kill just as many Israelis as (they have staged it to look like) Israelis have killed of their civilians. OK? I give up. I'm sure you will complain that this is not what you are saying.

you knew that it honestly was not what he was saying and you did just make it up.

Okay. I think we now understand that you were just making up your own version of what people actually say.

Thank you for clearing that up.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 11:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 32708
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 251 of 300 (338194)
08-06-2006 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Silent H
08-05-2006 4:21 PM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
Last two replies of yours are answered in this one...
I haven't taken a guess at how many Muslims share their reading of the Koran. The point I am making is that their reading of it is the cause of terrorism.

If your point is that militant fundamentalists believe they follow the only true literal interpretation of the Quran, that this interpretation promotes violence against all enemies, and that it is likely impossible for us to convince them otherwise then I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. I know I wouldn't.

The problem only occurs when you extend commentary to suggest that the terrorists do in fact hold the only true literal interpretation, which is both inaccurate, counterproductive, and insulting. Here is an example...

It is what they would claim, and it is how it looks to me upon reading it myself, and their particular interpretation, which they believe is the true one, has certainly wreaked havoc in the world now and in the long history of Islam. But that is my point, this focus on what is the "correct" interpretation is completely useless. It doesn't matter what I think or what you think, it only matters what they think because it is what is fueling terrorism. This prissy academic concern about the "correct" interpretation is just a distraction.

I am very aware that many Muslims hold to a nonliteral interpretation of Islam. I am also aware that they are intimidated into silence by the literalists. But denying that the source of terrorism IS in the fundamentalist reading of the Koran is just putting on blinders, it's not aiding anyone. It keeps the whole thing a mystery, perpetuates a lie about the peaceful nature of Islam. You cannot claim that the peaceful interpretations are correct when you see what Khomeini says above.

In that quote you explicitly claim that only the terrorists hold the true literal interpretation, your evidence apparently being references to quotes by extremists.

Considering how careful I'm being to avoid just this reading of what I'm trying to say I am very puzzled that you managed to do it anyway. How are you finding me "explicitly" claiming in that paragraph that "only the terrorists hold the true literal interpretation?" What I said there is that the source of terrorism is in their interpretation.

Ooohhh. You are hung up on the word "literal?" Just dawned on me. Look, if you want to get all semantic about this, I DON'T CARE if we call it "literal" or not. DROP THE "LITERAL" if that's what is so offensive. But this is just a wild goose chase you are taking me on. So I'll drop the "literal" already. Let me rewrite the Offending Paragraph:

quote:
I am very aware that many Muslims hold to a nonliteral liberal interpretation of Islam. I am also aware that they are intimidated into silence by the literalists fundamentalist hardliners. But denying that the source of terrorism IS in the fundamentalist reading of the Koran is just putting on blinders, it's not aiding anyone. It keeps the whole thing a mystery, perpetuates a lie about the peaceful nature of Islam. You cannot claim that the peaceful interpretations are correct when you see what Khomeini says above

Uh oh, I just reread your post and now I'm confused again. Apparently you AREN'T bother by the term "literal" since you agreed with it in this paragraph above:

quote:
If your point is that militant fundamentalists believe they follow the only true literal interpretation of the Quran, that this interpretation promotes violence against all enemies, and that it is likely impossible for us to convince them otherwise then I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. I know I wouldn't

Now I don't have the slightest idea what you are complaining about.

That begs the question... do the extremists actually hold the true literal interpretation?

Where did I say they hold the "true literal interpretation?" Really, trying to follow you is a nightmare.

Their popularity or threat to competitors does not justify any conclusions regarding that question Why you insist on extending your arguments that far is not clear.

I do not see that I extended them that far. I'm knocking myself out to avoid extending them that far. And then when I seem to succeed, you complain that I'm not saying anything you don't agree with anyway. This is a wild goose chase. You seem to simply be set to find fault with anything I say, on the most trivial level, refusing to get my main point. This makes this exercise in trying to answer you simply futile. The only reason I'm doing it is because Jar has been having conniption fits about my first reaction to this confused post.

On the question of correct interpretations I am left puzzled why you keep acting as if I am trying to whitewash Islam. Why would I care? If the Quran said people should kill others and take over the world I'd be more than happy to point that out. It is not my religion, and peaceful or not in intent it still undercuts many of my own beliefs and so is an antagonist to me personally.

I believe that it is open and shut that the literalists' interpretations are thoroughly supported by the Koran and backed up by other Islamic writings and history, BUT it is irrelevant. I don't see how anyone can fail to see this, it seems to me to take bending over backwards to avoid seeing it. I don't care however. I am trying to get the focus off this.

Interestingly enough I was pointing out the mistake of supporting Islamic militants back when Republicans (like Reagan and Bush Sr) were saying how wonderful they were (to fight atheism) and trained them in tactics they are using against us today.

I think that's a key point here. I recognized the threat posed by Islamic militants back when many Republicans thought they were allies and downplayed their explicitly violent rhetoric as somehow helpful to us. Their threat remains the same today, and I still criticize them as I did in the past. I'm just not willing to make statements that are not factually true about Islam because I don't need to in order to address the threat.

You have a different view about what the facts are about what Islam teaches, different from many others who have no doubt studied Islam more than you have, not just the terrorists themselves but many ex-Muslims, who are not afraid to say that those readings about a violent jihad are quite legitimate, and others who have spent time studying it. Therefore you can't just blandly state that you have the facts and the others don't.

EVIDENCE COMING UP: I've quoted it before here more than once I think. Here it is again:

Okay, there are some problems. First of all he appears to be addressing pacifism mentioned directly within the Quran and that it is a popular subject among mullahs, which means Islam is not devoid of such concepts.

Nobody said it was. What I have said many times is that there are two sides to Islam because of events in Mohammed's life. When things were going well he preached a peaceful religion; when people refused to accept his teaching he started imposing it on them by force, and killing some for refusing. Khomeini is simply commenting on his view that it's cowardice that embraces only the merciful side of Islam and ignores what he makes only too clear is an out and out murderous side. They don't need due process, he says, all they need is the identity and you can just kill the offender.

He is indicating that there are other verses and history which allow for violent action, and in the full quote is shown to be discussing how it is to be applied to enemies, most specifically criminals.

Uh huh. Well, you got me there. I wonder what he regards as a criminal.

This reads exactly like Xian fundies who argue with pacifists among their ranks that war and executions are compatible with Xianity.

I see. Killing someone you consider to be a "criminal" without due process you would equate with that argument. That's unbelievably absurd. The whole tone of Khomeini's speech is to encourage wanton killing, slitting throats and cutting off hands and so on, the opposite of legally conducted executions and war or any humane system of jurisprudence on the earth for that matter. I can hardly believe you could make such a comparison.

Second, if it is true he said this and meant it as a call to change Islam into an aggressive forward moving worldwide violent campaign (Quran says kill and imprison, rather than Quran says kill and imprison those who have transgressed against you) it does not suggest why his reading should be considered literal.

Who cares if it's "literal?" Why are you hung up on this word? Or hung up on it and then willing to use it yourself to describe the terrorists? "CHANGE Islam?" What a joke. I guess you just dismiss everything that has been shown about Islam's mistreatment of "infidels" throughout its long history, its enslavement of Christians, its subjudgation of Christians and Jews. Or do you just read the islamic anti-Israel apologists? I suppose you interpret all the killing of Christians going on in the world now as political.

Third, this is trusting translation to a source that is less than unbiased. I have no idea if this is actually attributable to him or is an accurate translation. Looking over the site I found pages like this and which contain gross factual errors and clearly biased commentary with no sources to back them up.

Oh and you are qualified to determine what is a factual error, and just announce it as a flat fact? Sorry, I trust these ex-Muslims, many of whom certainly know how to read Arabic, over you.

You repeatedly criticized me for making comments without backing them up... where are their sources? On that note...

I tried to discuss the divergent causes for terrorism against Israel and the US based on the history of Israel. You simply asserted my claims were false. I then repeated my version and challenged you to prove that that your version of Israeli history and roots of violence their are accurate using sources.

If your criticisms are good enough for me they are good enough for you. Find factual sources to back up your whitewashed version of Israeli history or admit you are blowing smoke on the issue. I already proved you wrong in the other thread and I can do so again.

No. I refuse to run down this rabbit trail. This is absolutely irrelevant. I do not care what legitimate grievances there may be, and I won't say there aren't any. The point is that NONE OF IT JUSTIFIES the way the Muslims have been dealing with Israel. The only thing that is relevant is that the main motivation of terrorism is to do away with Israel. There is NO excuse, I don't care WHAT the history is, for this mad blind policy that makes negotiation impossible. You cannot justify this policy on the basis of ANY history. YOu cannot justify Hezbollah's insane shelling of Israel on any rational grounds whatever. And you are all so blind you don't see the duplicity in their actions. They are a treacherous enemy. They act in bad faith no matter what they do. They put their civilians in harm's way so that israel will be held responsible and you all eat it up and flatly refuse even to think about the possibility that they've staged this, and that it's THEIR callousness, not Israel's that is doing this. And above all you will not even touch the question of the Koran and religious motivations in all this murder and bad faith. Sorry, holmes, I know you don't want to be lumped with the leftists, but you sure sound like them.

Like I said, you appear to be in such denial you are unwilling to admit zionists murdered an Israeli PM to disrail a peace plan that was showing progress. Even Israelis are straightforward that this occured.

I still have NO idea what you are talking about, where I supposedly denied this.

Your policy is of appeasement

What appeasement? Please point this out. I was against the Mujhadeen when Reagan and Bush supported them with US tax dollars. I was against the Taliban when Bush and Cheney were making deals with them. I fully agreed with a war in Afghanistan except in how it has been carried out which is NOT TO COMPLETION.

I was against the war in Iraq primarily because it weakened our position against AQ by diverting resources and increased the power of fundamentalists, particularly Iranian supported fundamentalists which you seem to have a problem with yourself. Since we did go to war I am hoping something good can come out of it for the Iraqi people (after all I was against our support for Saddam in the first place) and I don't think we should pull our troops out until a stable gov't is achieved.

Thus you can't peg me as some pacifist liberal, and especially not as an appeaser. If you have some support for that claim then give it. Otherwise take it back.

YOu just aren't making any sense to me at all. YOu seem to be carrying on this absolutely meaningless argument with me. I draw inferences from it that you deny and I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.

How does pointing out the violent interpretations of the Koran radicalize Muslims?

It doesn't. Repeatedly suggesting violent interpretations are the correct literal interpretation alienates potential allies and leads to poor resolution of the conflicts we are facing.

Again, I don't know why you are carrying on about this since my last four or five posts have specifically AVOIDED arguing this. They are motivated by their reading of the Koran and there is no getting around this whether you want to accept it as the correct reading or not. Trying to palm it all off on political history is a big fat lie. This is ideologically/religiously motivated, the violence and the duplicity, both defined by their reading of Islam.

You also cannot win this by claiming force must be used and Israel is blameless. While force will likely be necessary there must be boundaries on that force. All possible action is not practical and indeed is not legal. Israel has crossed those lines repeatedly. Whether you want to admit it or not they are STILL in violation of multiple UN resolutions dating back years, and have broken int'l law repeatedly in the Lebanese conflict.

I agree with Buzsaw that the UN resolutions are biased against them and permissive toward islamic terrorism.

The reason force is necessary -- absolutely necessary, when the terrorists get too strong or too close -- is that the terrorists will not negotiate. They are ideologically against negotiating. They want to prolong the conflict to gain world opinion on their side, they stage everything to go against Israel, they've made up half their history for this purpose, they want Israel dead and they aren't going to stop their vioent attacks EVER. And you want to stop Israel from taking out their weapons and let them build them up against them. Sorry, force is unfortunately required with such an irrational enemy.

The current terrorists are driven by something WAY bigger than the current political situation,

I pointed out how it is driven by more than just politics and religious ideology, and by rather practical/personal issues. The indiscriminate nature of Israeli responses, and policies of collective punishment (which I PROVED to you exist) lead to real anger and legitimate motivation for retaliation.

None of that justifies their tactics. Their tactics should be condemned ABSOLUTELY, and answered by force if necessary, NO MATTER WHAT THE REASONS FOR THEM.

Well, there's the suicidal party line.

How will they kill me?

The whole western world, that is cowed by them, is taking this suicidal line, blind to the facts.

Keep it up and we'll be in World War III. Israel is the victim in this. If you cannot see this we are all in trouble.

??? Israel is not the victim when it kills 10 times more innocent people than its attackers, and in addition has targeted civilian infrastructure which acts as collective punishment.

Yes they are the victim. If the world weren't insane and blind Hezbollah would not be able to do what it has been doing, and Israel would not be obliged to retaliate.

It was certainly provoked. Its response has changed its position from victim to victimizer, in the same vein that if somebody beat up your friend you don't get to claim victim status when you proceed to blow up the attackers entire neighborhood killing many innocent families in the process.

NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, justifies their tactics. All Israel's actions have been self defensive, but you all refuse to see this. Hezbollah and the whole terrorist crew are acting out of sheer irrational hatred and revenge and other unworthy motives, but Israel is simply defending itself.

It is the worst form of vigilantism, and does not acknowledge the fact that they will have to live next to these people they just injured for years to come. which contain gross factual errors and clearly biased commentary with no sources to back them up.

Oh yeah, DON'T retaliate and have to live next to ten times the armament, giving access to suicide bombers and continuing crafty excuses not to negotiate and crafty designs to make Israel look bad and kill as many Israelis as possible.

Wrong diagnosis of the situation as usual.

If you answer this, would you please try to keep your answer to the briefest statement of the most important points?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Silent H, posted 08-05-2006 4:21 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 7:39 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32708
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 252 of 300 (338197)
08-06-2006 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Silent H
08-05-2006 4:21 PM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
??? Israel is not the victim when it kills 10 times more innocent people than its attackers, and in addition has targeted civilian infrastructure which acts as collective punishment.

Victimhood is defined by who is the aggressor and who on the defensive, not by numbers unfortunately hurt in the defensive action. And you are just buying the propaganda when you say they are targeting civilian infrastructure, just buying the whole staged show that the terrorists set up for the gullible west to blame Israel for.

It was certainly provoked. Its response has changed its position from victim to victimizer, in the same vein that if somebody beat up your friend you don't get to claim victim status when you proceed to blow up the attackers entire neighborhood killing many innocent families in the process.

Just propaganda and hyperbole holmes. Israel doesn't target civilians. Hezbollah and other terrorist groups are the ones who don't care about civilians and MAKE SURE to put them in harm's way for the PR mileage they get out of sacrificing them.

It is the worst form of vigilantism, and does not acknowledge the fact that they will have to live next to these people they just injured for years to come.

Why aren't you worried about the terrorists' having to live next to these people they are dealing with in bad faith and only want dead?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Silent H, posted 08-05-2006 4:21 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 5:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4049 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 253 of 300 (338198)
08-06-2006 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
08-05-2006 7:55 PM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
I will apologize for simply not having the patience to answer that long convoluted wandering post of yours.

That's not the right apology. That is an insult designed to look like an apology. I thank jar for coming to my defense in this matter and sticking to it. What he showed, and for which I deserve an actual apology, is your having made up things I never wrote, and positions in direct contradiction to things I clearly did.

Whether the cause is your finding my writing style lengthy and meandering is besides the point, the result (what you did) was not warranted and not just a bit unfair. If I find your posts generally devoid of facts, biased, and poorly analyzed I think you'd agree that does not give me the right to make stuff up about what you are saying or meaning.


holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 7:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 5:36 AM Silent H has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32708
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 254 of 300 (338199)
08-06-2006 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Silent H
08-06-2006 5:21 AM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
OK, then I will take back the apology. My first post was a reaction to the wandering prose, but it did express what I gleaned about the effect of your post and ended up concluding even after addressing the entire thing. I'm sure you don't believe what I said, in fact nobody who shares your views would claim to believe that, but those views nevertheless are fueling that very attitude. What you said supports it even if you disavow it. You said basically the same thing that the leftists say and the terrorists say and that almost everybody else here at EvC says in one form or another. The PC party line. I see no real difference. This whole argument that terrorism is provoked by Israel, which is just an apology for murder, is fueling the Naziesque drama which is unfolding in the world.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 5:21 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 6:10 AM Faith has responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4049 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 255 of 300 (338200)
08-06-2006 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
08-06-2006 5:18 AM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
Victimhood is defined by who is the aggressor and who on the defensive, not by numbers unfortunately hurt in the defensive action.

The Lebanese are on the defensive at this point as well as anyone else within Lebanon, with Israel being the aggressor. There is a point where numbers of innocents killed or displaced do matter regardless of the "benevolent" intentions of a defensive force.

And you are just buying the propaganda when you say they are targeting civilian infrastructure

The Israelis admit having blown up civilian infrastructure on purpose. One of their first targets was a civilian airport. I'm going by what they say, not Hezbollah.

Israel doesn't target civilians.

First of all they have in the past. That said, I am not claiming they are doing so right now. What I have been saying is that whether they intend to hit civilians or not, their actions indicate they are incapable of discriminating to a point that is criminally negligent.

Just because a person has been attacked, they do not have a right to any and all means of retaliation, particularly those which are likely to cause large numbers of innocent deaths.

From a practical standpoint alone, Israel's actions in lebanon show such a disparity it is ludicrous to claim they are advancing a fight against their enemy. A change in tactics is in order.

Hezbollah and other terrorist groups are the ones who don't care about civilians

You are right, and I don't support hezbollah or any other terrorist group. But that does not change the nature of what Israel is doing, intentionally or not.

Why aren't you worried about the terrorists' having to live next to these people they are dealing with in bad faith and only want dead?

I have said Hezbollah is clearly the provocateur in this case. But here's the rub, they started by attacking purely legitimate targets. Whatever they have done in the past, they confined attacks in this case to military targets, until Israel retaliated by hitting civilian targets in Lebanon.

This is where Israel began making errors. When you kill 10 times as many innocents as enemy you are creating new enemies who are not going to want to live next to you. So Israel kills large numbers of Lebanese they admit are not their enemy, why? Whatever their intent, the effect is alienating good neighbors (by their own admission).

In the end terrorist groups are not nations, they are groups, and furthermore they are criminal. I do not expect criminal organizations to abide by the law binding nations, I expect nations to, particularly as they have to think of the longterm consequences for large civilian populations on both sides of their border.

As I have said I was criticizing terrorist organizations for a long time, including back when Republicans were supporting them with US cash and expertise. To suggest my criticism of Israeli activity is equivalent to or suggests support for or lacking criticism of terrorist organizations is not accurate or fair.


holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 5:18 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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