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Author Topic:   Jean Charles de Menezes verdict
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 113 (432172)
11-04-2007 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Legend
11-02-2007 7:01 PM


Using the innocent
The sheer incompetence of the police. Even believing that he was a carrying sucide bomber, they still alowed him to board a bus and a train before finally deciding to stop him.
Even supposing he was the one they were looking for, you can't hold people down and shoot them in the face. What I think happened was the police assumed he was carrying a bomb, which could be detonated with a plunger-style blasting cap. Menezes, totally mystified as to why strange men are accosting him, he flails about trying to get them off of him when he motions in such a way that the police mistakenly interpret the gesture that the suicide bomber (aka - innocent man) was attempting to blow them up. They decide to go for the head so the chance that he will be unable to carry out the deed will be lesser.
Overall, the whole debacle has been highly disturbing. I find that it sets a precedence for absolving the police of responsibility and following of due process and, in conjunction with the abolition of Habeas Corpus, post 9/11, brings us one step closer to a police state.
But you don't find it disturbing that a bus was bombed, killing many innocent people? Why not start a thread on that? I suspect you don't really care one whit about Menezes. I suspect he's just a stepping stone to furthering your cause so you can justify your paranoid delusions about police state's.
An innocent man tragically died. The police involved should be held accountable and liable for that life. That's all that needs to be discussed.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Legend, posted 11-02-2007 7:01 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2007 10:43 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 56 by Legend, posted 11-04-2007 11:56 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 113 (432177)
11-04-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
11-04-2007 10:43 AM


Re: Using the innocent
Um, I don't think the police were responsible for that.
Yes, I know. I suspect that's precisely why some people don't care.
The reason that the Menezes shooting is so much more disturbing to any reasonable person is that terrorists with the power of terrorists aren't all that scary. Sure, a few bombs here and there. To put it in perspective, the most famous act of terrorism - 9/11 - killed less people than died in motorcycle accidents that year.
Should I callously and prickishly say that Menezes is just one person, so, eh? *shrugs*
On the other hand, terrorists with the power of a modern state is pretty fuckin' scary indeed. The Constitution doesn't defend itself, NJ, not even in the UK; if we don't push back against government encroachment towards our freedoms, the freedoms aren't going to push back on their own.
Already proving my point. I mentioned, as a blurb, something along the lines of authority figures, and like a homing beacon you're already on your soapbox decrying injustice. I wanted to see how quickly Big Brother was going to be mentioned-- from communist sympathizers no less!
Well, they weren't. Now what? I'm curious what corrective measures you think can be taken that, were we to suggest them, you wouldn't accuse us of "agitating against the state" or some such nonsense.
Protest. If enough people make a big stink out of it, they will be forced to look at it again. No matter how well meaning it might have been, they screwed up. The officers involved screwed up big time. And they can't just say, "Oh well," when I'm sure there is a family in Brazil that is not satisfied with, "Oh well... We had good intentions."
My point was look at how Menezes is completely overlooked. He's being used to foist a political agenda. I don't like that.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2007 10:43 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2007 11:32 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 113 (432178)
11-04-2007 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Modulous
11-03-2007 1:37 PM


Re: Just a few points.
It is, as the trainers argue, not a question of training, but one of psychology. Some police officers simply shouldn't be given access to weapons, and there are some officers that do have guns that the trainers do not believe should have - but they are powerless to fail the officers because being a crazy lunatic is not grounds for failure.
You're absolutely right. There are a lot of bad officers who get hired. Sure, the departments go in to your background as best they can to try and get a general idea of what kind of person they are prospectively hiring. Some departments won't hire you without a detailed background investigation, a psychological battery, or a polygraph-- all of which is incredibly intrusive, but necessary.
All police agencies fear the gung-ho cops recklessly trek in to the unknown and who ultimately become a liability. And I think they hire more decent cops than they do bad ones. But at the end of the day, its still a gamble. The reward may outweigh the risk in most cases, but doesn't that all go out the window the second a scandal comes up?
Its like an old boss of mine once said. You can have a thousand atta-boy's, but one 'aw shit' erases them all."

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Modulous, posted 11-03-2007 1:37 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 113 (432187)
11-04-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by crashfrog
11-04-2007 11:32 AM


Re: Using the innocent
One person killed by the police, though, for no good reason. You don't find that just a little more significant?
It wasn't for no good reason. There was a reason. Unfortunately, it was a very bad mistake. Their reason doesn't take away the fact that they didn't have a lick of probable cause to justify deadly force.
Deadly force = That force which a person knows, or should know, has a substantial risk of causing death or grievous bodily harm. Its use is only justified under conditions of extreme necessity wherein death is imminent towards innocent life and when all lesser means of force has failed or cannot reasonable be employed.
I don't think one post constitutes a "soapbox", and the reason that I'm making the argument is because it's important.
Its a matter of coverage versus non-coverage, attention vs no attention. The media is particular to this. Its a question asking why you, or Legend, decide to decry injustice on what. Sure, you are justified in this instance. No doubt about it. But why no mention of other things too of similar importance?
    1. Would you agree that you have an aversion towards figures of authority?
    2. Do you find yourself romanticizing terrorists as "freedom fighters" in the same fight against oppression?
    Don't you think its a cause for concern when the government starts encroaching on personal liberty? I find freedom fairly important, personally, but I can appreciate how a right-wing authoritarian follower finds slavish devotion to authority so much more important. It's completely consistent with your personality type to find a positive defense of liberty objectionable.
    See, this is the problem we have. You see any acquiescence to authority as a bad character flaw. But you yourself have a slavish devotion to a bigger government, socializing everything, and a deep, and fundamental misunderstanding of what freedom actually entails.
    Whereas I want a smaller government, with less intrusion to privatized institutions (i.e. private (as in, personal protection).
    You have to find it ironic that what you support is historically the most oppressive system under the sun.
    Communist what now? You've lost me.
    You're a communist/socialist sympathizer; at least that's what you portray. Am I incorrect in this assessment?
    it took riots in the streets of LA - with deaths and millions in damages - just to get a Federal trial in the Rodney King case, is that what you're suggesting here? Burning London to the ground for justice? I kind of hope there's a more constructive solution.
    No, something constructive, as you say.
    When the state turns a blind eye to murder by the police, what precisely do you suggest be done?
    You constructively protest with a loud enough voice to reach the ears of people that have the authority and ability to re-examine the case.
    Any time you're talking about something the government is responsible for - like the police - that's politics. How could it not be?
    The government is not responsible for police, unless of course they are Federal officers. It has nothing to do with politics. It has to do with judiciary.

    “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2007 11:32 AM crashfrog has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2007 1:27 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

      
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