Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 60 (9209 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Skylink
Post Volume: Total: 919,449 Year: 6,706/9,624 Month: 46/238 Week: 46/22 Day: 1/12 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Religious views of Magic the Gathering--PLEASE HELP!
lfen
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 1 of 125 (217502)
06-16-2005 11:11 PM


I would especially like to hear from those who have a religious objection to the game Magic the Gathering. I would like to hear from Phat and Dawg as I think they might help me understand the thinking of fundamentalists. I have a pressing need to understand this.
In my regular and very secular program for school age children we include among many activities playing Magic the Gathering. I love the game and the parents of my players also appreciate how it encourages reading and reading comprehension skills as well as math and logic.
I'm facing opposition to the game in a summer program from a co worker who finds it objectionable. I'll find out more but it's based on some sort of conservative Christian objection. Now I know some of the children who play Magic at my program are from devout Catholic families and their parents support the game i.e. buy their children the cards. I know other mainline Christians who have no problem with it.
It's clear to me from the way the children play and talk about the game that like myself they are into the various strategies and tactics. Nobody is believing in worshiping demons or anything. I am going to be fighting against a ban on the cards that may even include quitting in protest but I really would like to understand why the objection. I myself don't find D&D objectionable but the person object ing to allowing children to bring Magic cards to the program lumped their objection in with Dungeons and Dragons. I also know some parents object to the Harry Potter books and I don't know what else.
Where is this coming from and why? I'd like to hear any information about why these games and books are being censored as to me I see no problem with them. I don't really know how to talk to this person so any insights or viewpoints would be much appreciated. Please Help me!!!
Thank you,
lfen
edited spelling error
This message has been edited by lfen, 06-16-2005 08:13 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 11:21 PM lfen has replied
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 06-16-2005 11:28 PM lfen has replied
 Message 5 by arachnophilia, posted 06-16-2005 11:30 PM lfen has not replied
 Message 7 by jar, posted 06-16-2005 11:35 PM lfen has not replied
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 06-17-2005 12:57 AM lfen has replied
 Message 13 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-17-2005 1:26 AM lfen has replied
 Message 24 by purpledawn, posted 06-17-2005 7:09 AM lfen has replied
 Message 32 by Monk, posted 06-17-2005 10:37 AM lfen has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4976 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 2 of 125 (217509)
06-16-2005 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lfen
06-16-2005 11:11 PM


What grade are these kids in and/or how old are they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lfen, posted 06-16-2005 11:11 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by lfen, posted 06-16-2005 11:26 PM dsv has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 3 of 125 (217512)
06-16-2005 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by dsv
06-16-2005 11:21 PM


The children are kindergarten through 5th grade ages 5 to 12.
Two brothers 6 and 7 are very bright and their father really supports the game. I just learned today that the older brother is going from the first grade to third grade. I won't say Magic taught him to read, he is very bright but he was very motivated to read the cards and so that helped him apply himself.
lfen
ABE: I'm not talking about over riding a parents wishes for their children. I'm talking about a staff person objecting to children whose parents approve of their playing the game bringing their cards to play the game at a camp and it's the part of the camp I'm in charge of they wouldn't even be there during the time we played Magic. So I feel they are trying to force their religious beliefs on people who don't agree with them and since this is not a religious affiliated program in any way I think this is totally uncalled for. There are some work political issues involving connections that I won't go into.
This message has been edited by lfen, 06-16-2005 08:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 11:21 PM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 11:35 PM lfen has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1719 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 4 of 125 (217514)
06-16-2005 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lfen
06-16-2005 11:11 PM


A strategy - the parents are concerned that the game trivializes the occult; i.e. suggests that spells are harmless. Asserting that it's just a game, or that magic/spells etc don't actually exist isn't going to convince them because the Bible tells them that magic actually is real.
What I would do is highlight the aspects of the game that you can take out of context (hey, there's no way they're going to understand the context anyway) to "show" that the game is actually against the occult:
1) Mana burn. Reckless use of magic power can hurt you.
2) The color balance. White always defeats black; the divine is always more powerful and can protect against the evil.
3) The "spell" cards have no instructions or occult directions on them that can be followed. ("tap one mountain"? What does that even mean in real life?)
Ultimately, your program is secular and doesn't recognize the existence or effecacy of the occult. Your co-worker has every right to opt not to participate in a game of Magic: The Spending, but it's inappropriate for her religious considerations to dictate what other parents' children will be allowed to play. If it's really a big deal, have the parents campaign for the dismissal of that worker.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lfen, posted 06-16-2005 11:11 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by lfen, posted 06-17-2005 1:39 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 23 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2005 5:22 AM crashfrog has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1596 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 5 of 125 (217515)
06-16-2005 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lfen
06-16-2005 11:11 PM


I myself don't find D&D objectionable but the person object ing to allowing children to bring Magic cards to the program lumped their objection in with Dungeons and Dragons.
mtg = d+d on trading cards.
now, uh, this take might offend some, but it's the truth as far as i know it. i think christians object on an overly protective basis. fundamentalist christian parents (i've known a few) are very, VERY protective of their children. anything that give them the willies, or could possibly involved satan, or doesn't seem like it has to do with god, the church, or some other basic need (like eating or getting an education) they would like to save their children from.
fundamentalists as a whole are very wary of temptation. they seem to avoid it at all costs. and something with pictures of beasts and demons and ghouls doesn't really seem like anything BUT temptation to idolatry to them.
but the children aren't stupid -- they know they're not really summoning spirits and demons. it's just a strategy game. but i bet the parents will say something to the extent of it being real. (yes. really)
i suggest rigging a deck to show them. remove all "magical" type instants, interrupts, etc. remove all "dark" kind of things (no black cards!). make it only creatures, preferably human (knights, etc), and artifacts, and made stuff on the level of disenchant. no fireballs, no tims (prodigal sorcerer in specific). just plain old average joe kinda cards.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lfen, posted 06-16-2005 11:11 PM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 11:41 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 28 by nator, posted 06-17-2005 8:43 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4976 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 6 of 125 (217516)
06-16-2005 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by lfen
06-16-2005 11:26 PM


That's younger than I thought. It has been a while since I have actually seen a magic card. I have only played it once or twice and I believe it was the first edition of the cards, so probably limited but I don't remember any kind of sexual or overly graphic images on the cards. There are definitely some very graphic books in the D&D series that I have seen, though.
As far as using it as a tool for education I would support that. The strategy and forethought is excellent and will probably hold the attention of kids that age better than chess would.
My argument would be, this game is like chess with more depth. As far as demonic craziness, first of all if the parents in question are fundies there is way more graphic reading to be found in the bible than most fantasy genre games. But that issue is moot, they should trust their children with some degree of intellectual responsibility. If they're worrying about them playing Magic at 5 to 12, they have their work cut out for them at 13-18.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by lfen, posted 06-16-2005 11:26 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by lfen, posted 06-17-2005 1:49 AM dsv has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 125 (217517)
06-16-2005 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lfen
06-16-2005 11:11 PM


They should play Witch of Endor instead.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lfen, posted 06-16-2005 11:11 PM lfen has not replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4976 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 8 of 125 (217518)
06-16-2005 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by arachnophilia
06-16-2005 11:30 PM


i suggest rigging a deck to show them. remove all "magical" type instants, interrupts, etc. remove all "dark" kind of things (no black cards!). make it only creatures, preferably human (knights, etc), and artifacts, and made stuff on the level of disenchant. no fireballs, no tims (prodigal sorcerer in specific). just plain old average joe kinda cards.
Wait a minute, you just described my best deck! Damn that diabolical comic book clerk -- "you'll be the pure 0wnage" my ass!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by arachnophilia, posted 06-16-2005 11:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2005 12:04 AM dsv has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1596 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 9 of 125 (217521)
06-17-2005 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by dsv
06-16-2005 11:41 PM


my best deck is a bruteforce fireball deck. every cheap buring card ever. it's quite methodical.
my most creative deck would have to my furnace-elf deck. it's a manalooper (mana elves, aluren, recycle, mana flare) and a furnace deck (furnace of rath, fireball, and a goblin) combined. basically, it puts a lot of mana on the table, a furnace, and a goblin that deals damage to the opponent when it's dealt damage. so you fireball (or shivan dragon) the goblin, which re-doubles the damage to opponent. it ends up dealing sometimes more than 100 damage, if it works right. sometimes big creature decks just globber the elves too quickly for it work. but it was really just a gimmik.
god, i haven't played magic in forever.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 11:41 PM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by dsv, posted 06-17-2005 12:14 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 18 by lfen, posted 06-17-2005 2:02 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 06-17-2005 7:41 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4976 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 10 of 125 (217522)
06-17-2005 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by arachnophilia
06-17-2005 12:04 AM


That made less sense to me than a Chris Porteus topic but it sounds very elite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2005 12:04 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2005 12:38 AM dsv has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1596 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 125 (217524)
06-17-2005 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by dsv
06-17-2005 12:14 AM


yes, my phone number at work ends in "1337"
i thought from the sound of your comment you played. i haven't in years, and i don't remember much. sorry for geeking out on you. lol

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by dsv, posted 06-17-2005 12:14 AM dsv has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1697 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 125 (217528)
06-17-2005 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by lfen
06-16-2005 11:11 PM


Anything that deals with occultic imagery, which includes magic, spells, etc, is thought to be a gateway to deeper occultic involvement, an invitation to demonic influence of an occultic sort. Old-fashioned occultic practices such as astrology, Ouija board, seances, tarot cards, are more obvious. Any form of superstition may be a gateway, however, it seems to me. I don't know that anyone has yet identified a direct connection between the kind of game you are talking about and actual witchcraft or sorcery, but it seems to me if parents don't like it they should simply withdraw their children from such activities.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-17-2005 12:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lfen, posted 06-16-2005 11:11 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by lfen, posted 06-17-2005 2:07 AM Faith has replied
 Message 29 by nator, posted 06-17-2005 8:52 AM Faith has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 1004 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 13 of 125 (217532)
06-17-2005 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by lfen
06-16-2005 11:11 PM


Hmm... I've never played D&D or Magic, so I can't really say much about it.
The parents are probably afraid of their kids being desensitized and attracted to the occult or even learning occultic practices through the messages in the cards (I have no idea if there are any such practices there).
My view is that most likely it is harmless and the parents are over-reacting -- perhaps even experiencing a little crusader arrogance, but like Jesus said, if their consciences are weak don't continue to cause them to stumble by continuing to do that which upsets them. I don't think quitting in protest is a good idea.
ABE: oops, just caught that its the co-worker and not the parents, but I guess the same thing still applies.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-17-2005 01:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lfen, posted 06-16-2005 11:11 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by robinrohan, posted 06-17-2005 1:34 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied
 Message 21 by lfen, posted 06-17-2005 2:44 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 125 (217533)
06-17-2005 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Hangdawg13
06-17-2005 1:26 AM


D&D was our favorite game as a family back in the day before everyone moved out (Thank God!).
I was Robin of Rohan (from the Tolkein novel).
My wife was Lolo of Lomoria.
My friend was Frank from Cleveland.
This is called fantasy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-17-2005 1:26 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 15 of 125 (217534)
06-17-2005 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
06-16-2005 11:28 PM


Your co-worker has every right to opt not to participate in a game of Magic: The Spending,
Magic: The Spending, haha, yep it can be that way, but so can any obsession. I spend a lot more on dancing than I do Magic. I spent $55 on dancing just last weekend, well $45 of that was on workshops. I haven't spent that much money on the current expansion just a couple of decks and few cards to improve them but I just play casually for fun.
but it's inappropriate for her religious considerations to dictate what other parents' children will be allowed to play.
Obviously I agree with you. I'm just wanting to have done some preparation before the meeting tomorrow and the better I understand how the issues might look to her the better I might deal with this and hopefully find an amicable solution after all we have to work together much of this summer. I'm still taken aback that she is trying to dictate this to me. I had already told her she didn't have to have it in her part of the program and that works fine. For example I only allow playing electronic games like Gameboy for a certain period of the day the kids know when it's time and when it isn't. No big deal.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 06-16-2005 11:28 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024